Navy Goes HK
21-Jan-10 – 21:28 by ToddG
Blockbuster announcement today made during the pistol-training.com/HK get together at HK’s booth this morning. HK has won a contract to provide HK45 Compact pistols to the U.S. Navy special operations community, replacing the SIG P226 for personnel in certain roles. Specifically, the model will be the HK45C-SD with threaded barrel and special sights for intended use as a suppressed weapon, taking the place of the now-discarded Mk23 “SOCOM” pistol.
(thanks to friend Greg Bell for the reminder that it was the suppressor-ready version of the pistol!)
Train hard & stay safe! ToddG
49 Responses to “Navy Goes HK”
I may have missed it since I started following PT’s blog after it began, but is PT a front for HK or something?
By Dandapani on Jan 22, 2010
WOW! That is pretty big news.
By Greg Bell on Jan 22, 2010
No, PT.com is not a front for H&K. PT is Todd’s company. He has a relationship with H&K because he’s currently torture testing the P30 in 9mm. It wasn’t long ago that he was doing a similar test with the S&W M&P handgun:
http://pistol-training.com/archives/998
There is even a PT edition of the M&P soon to hit the market:
http://pistol-training.com/archives/1076
By JW777 on Jan 22, 2010
Dandapani — Ha! No, if we were just a front for HK I wouldn’t have said the SIG Enhanced Ergonomics (“E Squared”) pistols were my favorite thing at the show so far. But the P30 test led to the meet & greet with HKPRO forum folks and HK’s president, and during that meeting the information about Crane buying HK45Cs for the Navy was announced. Because it is — as Greg pointed out — pretty big news related to handguns, it was published here.
By ToddG on Jan 22, 2010
The actual story headline should read, “HK Underbids Sig”. That’s all the news this is. Period. Anything else is pure spin.
By Stephen on Jan 22, 2010
Really? The fact that the Navy special warfare community believes the HK45 Compact meets their presumably demanding standards is just spin? Can’t say I agree
By DrewH on Jan 22, 2010
The JCP is fielded!
By Navigating Collapse on Jan 22, 2010
Yeah, HK is known for it’s history of underbidding.
By Greg Bell on Jan 22, 2010
Thanks to a reminder from Greg on M4Carbine, the post above has been edited to clarify that it’s a HK45C-SD primarily for suppressed use.
By ToddG on Jan 22, 2010
Obviously, that last post was meant to be sarcastic.
By Greg Bell on Jan 22, 2010
LOL. Let me clarify again (ToddG posted while I was posting). My comment about HK being known for underbidding was sarcastic. Please feel free to delete my mess Todd.
By Greg Bell on Jan 22, 2010
Can’t believe it… H&K’s version of OD green is even more ugly than everyone else’s!
By ChipK on Jan 22, 2010
I think that is officially called “turkey turd tan.”
By Greg Bell on Jan 22, 2010
Love the HK .45c but could do with their OD Green
By practicalgunreview on Jan 22, 2010
I meant “without”
By practicalgunreview on Jan 22, 2010
What’s with the funky baseplate? Is is just extended for extra capacity or is it a floatation device?
By XKL on Jan 22, 2010
XKL — It’s just an extended magazine on the display gun at SHOT.
By ToddG on Jan 22, 2010
and in a couple years there will be another huge announcement when they go with something else. These guys chew up and spit out guns like most people do gum. At the rate, and numbers, that contracts are awarded these days it’s getting so I’m more and more, wait for it, nonplussed, every time it happens.
By Rob Engh on Jan 23, 2010
It doesn’t please the eye but how well does it perform?
By Jay on Jan 23, 2010
Perhaps now we’ll finally have respite from all the HK fanboys declaring the Mk23 as “the greatest offensive pistol of all time” whatever the hell that means.
By Caleb on Jan 23, 2010
Wow, you guys must be color blind. That is tan/flat dark earth, not OD green.
It is nice to see that small special operations units can actually get the weapons they want when they are not held back with the red tape and bureaucracy that the rest of the military deals with when it comes to small arms procurement. It is no surprise that they choose HK. Just for the record, the Mark 23 is still the greatest offensive pistol of all time.
By Paul on Jan 23, 2010
A gold-plated Mk23 would be really offensive.
By ToddG on Jan 23, 2010
It sure kicks butt in Rainbow Six…
By Tam on Jan 23, 2010
Just for the record, the Mark 23 is still the greatest offensive pistol of all time.
Yeah it’s a great gun, when you run out of ammo you can beat them to death with it.
By PPGMD on Jan 23, 2010
Procurement and acquisition is still a long and tedious process. Just because the gun magazines didn’t report it being in development/testing doesn’t mean it was just a stoke of the pen to get it done.
HK may or may not have underbid Sig. At the end of the day, the price tag does not make the final decision….the requirements of the shooter does. No spin necessary. The weapon that meets the requirements, and recieved the best shooter feedback wins. Which is why NSW selected Sig’s, not Beretta’s 25+ years ago.
The Sig 226 started getting issued in the mid-80′s, and is still the standard issue pistol to NSW. “Chew up guns and spit them out like most people do gum”? The Sig has been the issued pistol for over half the existence of the organization. Not exactly a quick turn around.
When HK gets awarded a contract to provide a pistol to a particular organization, then it was because it is what met the requirements of that organization. What those requirements are exactly will remain pure speculation to those outside of the organization.
By Sean on Jan 23, 2010
First I am a sig shooter but hardly a fanboy, just to give some background.
When I see this “limited use” adoption I immediatly think of how much nicer this perticular pistol must be in the hand when a suppressor is attached(I am a suppressor owner/user in .45) comparred to the mk23. If anyone has ever held a mk23 with suppressor attached the first thing that comes to mind is just how much further the pistol/suppressor extends from the body when being shot than even a subgun. While I dont have personal experience with the suppressed MP5(or any MP5) I can only imagine how much closer to the body that perticular combo is than a mk23 with suppressor. That is a relatively long winded explanation of why the “offensive pistol” approach is a bit unreasonable.
Now, when I see this, I think that perticular pistol is a good secondary weapon that can likely use existing suppressors. In a way being a logical fix or maby better said as intigration of a weapon into the empty role that the mk23 fits but diesnt get used in because the role is SO perticular. This pistol fits that role and expands it enough that I believe it will actually be used.
BTW I am not high speed nor do I claim to be
By Joel on Jan 24, 2010
Sigh. Sorry to open this can of worms, but I’ve got a feeling caliber played a huge factor in this choice as well…
After all, Delta has their hi-cap Para 1911s, HRT has their Springfield single-stack 1911s, and the SEALS will have a .45 that’s reliable.
By jbourneidentity on Jan 24, 2010
IIRC, they flirted w something similar (USP 45C w extended threaded bbl and raised sights) several yrs ago but never closed the deal.
Anyone familiar w the modern contracting bid process knows low bidder does not guarantee a contract these days. The specs might give an inside edge to somebody from the start, and “best value” can trump low bid.
I got the impression they were pleased w much about the Mk23 except the size and have been looking for something similar but smaller ever since. HK worked there way there w the USP Tactical, HK45 and HK45C.
I got a lot of flak a while back for saying the HK45c, even w “just” 8 rounds, would fit the bill for most in the military.
All this really needs now is a bayo lug and skull crusher pommel?
By MikeO on Jan 24, 2010
Who’s suppressor will the HK be used with?
By Ron N. on Jan 24, 2010
I dont know what suppressor is planned for use on this pistol, but I believe the mk 23 used the KAC suppressor. I would guess that no matter what suppressor this pistol is intended to use the KAC suppressor will find its way on a few provided there is not any reliability concerns.
By Joel on Jan 24, 2010
Delta and double stack Paras? Really?
By Bax on Jan 26, 2010
No. Don’t know where that came from but it is inaccurate.
By ToddG on Jan 26, 2010
If Delta has hi cap Para’s it must’ve been to just prove a point, “Hey those internet guys are right, they don’t work worth a damn”.
By Rob Engh on Jan 26, 2010
I am daily reminded Pat Rogers calls this the “errornet” for a reason…
By Tam on Jan 26, 2010
I have no knowledge/opinion as to whether the mk23 is truly the greatest offensive pistol of all time.
But I have to wonder if Paul has a perspective/insight which we may not fully understand. Then again, I may be full of it.
By Flinginglead on Jan 26, 2010
I’ve fired a few at my local range, and while a serviceable pistol, and plenty reliable and accurate, I believe it was the ergonomics that was the major complaint about the original Mk23.
By Sean on Jan 26, 2010
The Teams actually did choose the Beretta first back in the early ’80s. They had problems with them and so went to 1911s for a short time before adopting the Sig in the late ’80s. We also had HKP9S’s for a suppressed pistol. Mk23 was generally regarded as a waste of money. What does “offensive pistol” mean anyway, ‘cuz no one in the Teams knows either.
By Chuck on Jan 27, 2010
Hmmm…
Lots of comments, but is nobody thinking that Sig’s downhill quality slide might be part of the equation?
By Davey on Jan 27, 2010
Hmmm…
Lots of comments, but is nobody thinking that Sig’s downhill quality slide might be part of the equation?
No.
By Sean on Jan 28, 2010
Its too bad–now HK will probably raise the price to over 1k–oh wait they already did that.
Next all the seal wannabe fanboys will clear the shelves.
Now that the snarkies are out of the way I must say I thought this was the best compromise in a duty 45. The ergos are very nice for a non 1911 45. The mag release rocks. Cross between P2000 and HK45. Basically an evolution of the USP/P2000 ergos in a 45 package. That said it still has that HK trigger–grrrrr. The only knock is the limited round capacity–so they threw that massive extension on.
I couldnt justify the expense of $1300 for the whole platform (w/mags, holster). Glock can deliver in the 30 for nearly half the price.
By P30man on Jan 30, 2010
Having over 32 yrs in Army Spec Ops, 7th SFGA, USASOC, JSOC, etc. I can say with certainty that we (Army) used Sig’s, H&K’s, FNH, all in .45ACP. Maybe we played with a 10mm & even Guncrafter’s .50GI, But we didn’t go anywhere with the Beretta 92FS, (NO THANK YOU FOR MUCH. To Your 9mm, .40S&W. .223/5.56.) Give me a .338 Lapua, a .308 WIN, or 6.8SPC and I’m a happy hunter) H&K has always low bid under Sig Sauer. Now H&K makes a fine handgun & Great assault rifles. But I like my Sig handgun’s better. The Fed’s need to stop hopping in and out of bed with whomever is giving them a discount this quarter for a contract, and stay with a good reliable system, so all troopers can learn to utilize each other’s weapons platforms. Let’s get a contract for H&K Assault Rifles for all of the troopers or even FNH, so that Navy, Coast Guard, Marines, Air Force and Army personnel train with and use the best battle rifles in the world.. and finally get rid of the Mattel Toy and it’s .22 cal bullet..
Bastard 6 —OUT.
LTC E.J.P. sends.
By LTC Bastard Six on Feb 1, 2010
WTF exactly is a trooper? I call bullshit. We (ussocom) carry the M9 with the occasional M11.
By James Bailey on Feb 5, 2010
Sort of strange. I’ve dealt with military folks for decades, and outside of the internet environment I’ve yet to meet one who complained much about the 5.56 or the 9mm not working for them in the field. I’ve also known a number of SF folks who, like James, carry the M9 or the M11 regularly
By David Armstrong on Feb 6, 2010
Actually…. 45s were in common use by delta yes…. but certain teams in SOCCOM generally speaking used 9mm…. just a heads up… There is nothing wrong with this round. Its just effective. And hell suppressed its quieter too…. yes the 45 makes for the most powerful suppressed round…. but thats not the point…
By Liberty1979 on Feb 7, 2010
It was pretty much a given that those statements were pure garbage, which is probably why there were no responses for several days. Let’s not get too wrapped up over the fact that someone is using the anonymity of the internet to elevate their status in their mythical world.
Besides, bad information is all over the internet in regards to this stuff. Everyone has a friend whose cousin knew a guy whose dog was once in SOCOM and told him first hand that they used poisoned darts launched from submarines. Come to think of it, the gun magazines are not much better.
By Sean on Feb 8, 2010
I think it was my cousin’s cat actually
By Rob Engh on Feb 8, 2010
As Sean said, anyone can be anyone on the internet. For the sake of pistol-training.com readers, though, I can personally vouch for both Sean and Dr. Armstrong in terms of their first-hand experience with US .mil training.
By ToddG on Feb 8, 2010
Just to clarify, handguns are “sidearms.”
The MK23 is not. It is an “offensive handgun.” In other words, it is used as the main weapon for certain operations such as stealthy assaults.
I hope that makes as much sense as it does to me.
By jmack on Feb 16, 2010
“handguns are ‘sidearms’”
+
“The MK23 is not. It is an ‘offensive handgun.’”
=
so basically it’s a handgun and handguns are sidearms therefore it is a sidearm?
By David on Feb 17, 2010