The person holding the gun is responsible for the gun. There is no getting around that. If a gun makes an unexpected loud noise, the person with his finger on the trigger made it happen, not anyone else.
But…
At the range today, I saw a self-appointed “instructor” teaching an older woman how to shoot for the first time. Every moment the gun was in her hand, her finger was on the trigger: loaded, unloaded, pointed at the target, pointed at the table, etc. Not once did the “instructor” notice or comment. He also never tried to fix her grip, thumbs crossed behind the slide. Even after her little .22 Walther or SIG or whatever it was had multiple stoppages and she was bleeding, he didn’t change or — to the best of my observation — even notice that her grip was bad. Neither did he ever correct her trigger pulling technique, which involved not one but both index fingers.
The student left the range injured, unskilled, lacking any confidence whatsoever, and patently unsafe to handle a firearm. But she also left with a formal approval from the “instructor” saying she was now a qualified and trained gun owner.
Where does the blame lie, then?
Train hard & stay safe! ToddG
You didnt call him out on the safety violations?
As a rule I don’t interrupt someone giving a lesson unless they’re directly endangering someone. If I stopped what I was doing every time I saw a finger on a trigger or a bad grip, I’d never get any practice and I’d quickly get kicked off the range.
Sadly, if she lacks all confidence then she probably won’t be willing to use a gun, she’ll transfer her fear to the gun itself, and then be someone who says, “I know how to use a gun and I’ve received proper training but I still don’t think guns are safe and we shouldn’t let people just walk around with them wherever they want.” I would hold her instructor liable.
On the other hand, if she actually uses it and due to poor gun handling manages to cause someone an unintended injury, it’ll be her fault, and the instructor probably won’t ever even know what he did wrong…
I had a neighbor over for some informal shooting years back and he started with his thumbs crossed behind the slide. I stopped him, showed the proper grip, he shot several times, inserted new mag,re gripped the gun wrong, I corrected him again. This went on about 4 times…. Then in the middle of a mag he adjust his glasses and as he re grips the gun wrong again… it fires. He removed the skin from the knuckle on his left thumb. And yes Glocks do function with flesh in the slide in case any one was wondering…. oh and he was done for the day as well.
Without actually being there; it sounds like a leadership problem of the range in my eyes. If someone is going to pose as a competent person the rangemaster has a moral obligation to ensure it’s good/safe instruction.
@CCT125US: Todd said it was a “self-appointed instructor.” Probably a neighbor, son, grandson, who “knows all about guns from his time in the Air Force.” As bad as the guy I saw at the Ft Lewis recreational range who was forcing his kid to shoot his 7mm Magnum. Kid was obviously in pain, dear old Dad wouldn’t hear of shooting something gentler.
“It takes a village to raise a child.” As gun lovers/private citizens/professionals we are all responsible for our own way of life. If a doctor turns a blind eye to another doctor’s incompatence, what does that lead to? There are long resounding effects to every action and inaction that is taken. When given the chance, do the right thing.
:shakes_head: & :rolls_eyes:
Alex — While I understand where you’re coming from, the range cannot take responsibility for every person who shows up with a new shooter in tow. There is a small army of NRA certified instructors who teach CCW classes here and more than half of them are frighteningly incompetent. What is the range to do?
That’s why I don’t consider an “NRA Certified Anything” as competent.
I got my first pistol permit in NJ when I turned 21. I subsequently moved to NY city, then NY state.
So everywhere I’ve been has been pretty much the least gun-friendly areas in the nation … and the crap I’ve seen at the range would make many a head spin (or bleed if unlucky enough).
In NJ, saw a guy trying to teach his wife/girlfriend to defend herself. Got her a nice “light” S&W titanium revolver chambered in .357Mag. I’ve shot one of those and they make .44Mag’s out of steel guns seem docile in comparison. Every time she pulled the trigger the recoil would flip the muzzle around so far it would be pointed at her own head. He never noticed.
With my own wife watching the Belleville, NJ PD qualify one time at my local range. One officer didn’t know how to open the cylinder to his duty weapon to extract the spent shell casings, called the RO to help. Same guy couldn’t hit a human-sized target strong-hand-only at 5yrds and failed to qualify, but was assured not to worry, he could try again next week.
Had my local shop swap out my stock Glock 19 sights for Trijicons. Noted when I walked into the range after picking up my installed sights that the rear was noticeably off to the right (not centered). RO says something to effect of that’s how they’re supposed to be since I’m right-eye dominant. I explain to him that he needs to run for mayor of the village of idiots and he shoots a few rounds to prove that he’s right. At 10 feet slow firing his group is the size of a large pizza – somehow though, he’s proven himself correct! I pick up same gun, create a group about the size of a quarter, and everything is off about two inches to the right. He says that it must be me, since they were fine when he shot it, then literally grabs my loaded and chambered gun from my hand, puts it down on the table at the back of the room, grabs two target-carriers, puts one up against the side of my sight, and uses the other to smash down on the first one to drift my sight. Again, for those that missed it, there was a 115gr Speer Lawman in the chamber.
My list goes on and on.
The blame lies with the “instructor.” Ignorance of the law may be no excuse, but ignorance in general is. “You don’t know what you don’t know.”
Homer: “It takes two to lie Marge! One to lie and one to listen…”
Marge: “Homer what is that supposed to mean?”
I yelled at some people shooting trap a couple of weeks ago. They were screwing around with their shotguns off the firing line (break actions that were closed). They wanted to get some cool group photos but muzzled me in the process. I yelled at them, and one person in the group (wearing an air force uniform) said, “it’s cool, they’re just taking pictures.” I yelled back that it doesn’t matter, then muttered something about them performing anatomical impossibilities.
The more time I spend at the range, the more I get it that safety is everybody’s responsibility.
We have a range local to me where the bullet holes in the ceiling start behind the firing line…. This is the same place where I’ve had the clerks sweep me with their loaded guns.
Todd, on a completely unrelated note I picked up an hk p30v2 completely based off of your web page. Tell hk you sold another one for them 😉 what panel configuration were you running when you were carrying yours?
What about when you go the range, and someone decides to walk Infront of everyone while the range is hot, or even the the side?