Talking with Ken Hackathorn yesterday, we were both lamenting the steady decline of professional integrity in the firearms industry. Gone it seems are the days when you could trust a deal on a handshake or expect companies to stand behind their products. Perhaps it’s the economy or perhaps it’s just the nature of growth, but business is definitely leaving business ethics behind.
Ken relayed a discussion he had at the SHOT Show with a well known company. This company makes plenty of good products, but one of their more popular items has been plagued recently by QC problems. When Ken first brought this up, the company rep denied the problem existed and called it an internet rumor. So Ken explained that he’d personally experienced the problem with his own pistol and had seen students and friends who also suffered from it. At that point, the rep reversed course and admitted that there was a problem, but that it “only affected two or three percent” of the model in question and so it was just easier for the company to fix the ones that were returned than change production and quality control procedures to make sure the problem didn’t happen in the first place.
To which Ken replied, “Would you buy a fire extinguisher for your home if you knew that 2-3% of them wouldn’t work, but would be replaced by the company in the event of failure?”
Because you know after your house burns down, getting a new fire extinguisher will make everything better.
For a short while one of the big gun companies put a guy in charge of its Quality Control department who’d come from a major washing machine manufacturer. He had all sorts of ideas of how to change the company’s QC program to be more efficient. And to his credit, those ideas had worked to make his former company incredibly successful and well known for reliability. But the problem is that a pistol is not a washing machine. Probably 99% of all washing machines get used regularly, and if they fail there’s probably less than 1% chance that anyone will suffer more than a day of going commando. In contrast, probably 90% of pistols sold in this country will never see a full box of ammo go through them, but if one fails when it’s needed, people die. There’s a pretty big difference between a Federal Air Marshal who’s forced to wear dirty socks and one whose gun jams in the middle of a hijacking. Is that really so difficult to understand?
I appreciate that any company, making any product, is going to produce some lemons. But I also know by years of first hand experience at big gun companies that there are steps that can be taken to keep the lemon rate to a minimum. Or, conversely, there are plenty of cost cutting measures that companies could choose not to take, so they didn’t have so many problems. Rather than watching the majority of the industry race to the bottom in terms of quality so they can have the most aggressive price, it would be nice to watch a few more companies put their pride and resources behind making truly bomb proof guns you could trust when you took them out of the box for the first time.
Train hard & stay safe! ToddG
Well said and sadly true.
It is not too late for them to correct the problem. When you are backed up by thousands of orders I guess you don’t have to care.
In a world of compromise, some don’t.
Experiencing Ken in December was like time travel to another age of honor, integrity and zero PC. What a giant.
What also bugs me about the gun industry, is major companies putting out major product lines without actually consulting those who shoot and/or train for a living. there has been many, many examples of the latest and greatest gun, simply ignored by the movers and shakers of the tactical community because the gun was an unmitigated POS.
Those who has studied or knows about Lean/Six Sigma can tell you there is a way to increase the efficiency of a process and improve the quality control of a product line. After all, that is what Toyota did and they not only cut the costs of their processes compared to their competitors, but have earned quite a reputation for reliability. That does not give free reign to cut corners to cut short end costs in lieu of quality assurance especially for a potentially life-saving piece of equipment.
The loss of integrity is directly related to the loss of personal responsibility in society as a whole.
Would I be out of line to suggest that this company is Glock. I am stunned how Glock is screwing the pooch with the whole let us fix our new inferior extractor problem by introducing a new ejector…or whatever it is they are doing to screw up the legendary reliability of Gen3 9mm’s.
What jumped out at me was “It’s only an internet rumor”. I found that statement enlightening given the recent brouhaha over new media and it’s tendency to tear things down and not build things up.
It’s only one rep in one company, but it does cause me to think a bit about how new media is perceived…
Sure Would be nice if that unnamed company could fix their little problem instead of making us go a month without a pistol while they fix it. 🙁
I’d like to see this go beyond lamenting. In any industry where quality control, or lack thereof, can lead to serious consequences there are mechanisms that hold companies in check if integrity and ethics are lacking.
Not being a fan of governmental oversight of anything, I can’t help but wonder why there is not even a hint of civil legal action. We’ve been talking about accuracy issues with 9 mm M&Ps all over the place. Why wouldn’t competition community file a class-action law suite against SW if their competition-oriented guns don’t hold to average industry standards of accuracy? I can see three possible answers here. Either the problem is not as prevalent as web makes it, or competition community doesn’t give a damn while waiting on aftermarket solution, or, most likely, competition community has no unifying body that will take on that cause.
However, the reality is that without effective ways of consumer pressure on manufacturers there will be no change. It is obvious that current status quo is just fine for the manufacturers.
Shot in the dark… this company is Glock.
Too bad Paul Barrett doesn’t have a chapter or two covering this in his new book.
This is typical banter from this particular gun company. Back in the mid-ninetys, my department was experiencing pistols that were running full auto due to out of spec contact between the striker and the trigger bar. The company insisted we were playing with the trigger bars to lighten trigger pull. When my XO “threatened” to send out a teletype about the condition, factory reps showed up at our range with fix kits within days… So much for not knowing about the problem. Fast forward to 2011- sound familiar?
I’m guessing gun companies (Glock, S&W, etc..) have grown complacent regarding quality in recent years due to the increase in demand. Hopefully someone defending themselves or others doesn’t pay the price for their complacency around quality.
“Success breeds complacency. Complacency breeds failure. Only the paranoid survive.” Andrew Grove
Reminds me of what Jeff Cooper wrote about “Another Country”.
I used to believe on myths, legends and personal experience gained from using ONCE a fine pistol.
The present generation cant really come close from the past.
I tend to blaim the media, both the old glossy “any gun is a good gun as long as you buy ads” magazines, or the new Internet Fanboi Youtube squad. After all, for every shooting product with poor design, terrible reliability, or bad QC, there is a forum full of fanbois going on about how great Brand X is, and how you suck because you don’t like it.
^blame^
Too early in the morning…
> a pistol is not a washing machine
That would explain why my clothes still aren’t clean, but do have new holes in them.
I sell washing machines for my livelihood. I hear every day about how the old machines lasted 25 years and never met a repair guy. It should surprise none of you that the machines are “designed” to last 10 years, but if you get 6 you should rush right out and buy another shitty machine from the same company. They’re quick to take your cash but won’t be there at day 366 after the warranty is up. The companies blame the consumer for the change and it is partly our fault. This change happened before the economy went south.
I put some blame on the consumer, not just the manufacturer.
Most consumers will buy something soley because it costs less or because it is a over hyped product that they saw in a magazine.
The emotional attachment to something that can be justified because they save $50 on Brand X over Brand Y. They have no idea why Brand X is cheaper or what makes Brand Y better but because they have had 250 flawless rounds…
Responding that something is an “internet rumor” to somebody who has seen and experienced a problem first hand is the most condescending, insulting, garbage attempt at a jedi mind trick. The fact someone would even attempt it isn’t just dishonest, it’s dishonest and unbelievably insulting.
Dear gun companies:
Pretending that there isn’t a problem does not instill confidence in the consumer. It makes you look like a gaggle of lying doofuses. We’d all much rather you acknowledged that a problem exists and then make earnest efforts to fix it. That we respect. Telling me it’s just an internet rumor when I’m holding a gun that doesn’t ***CENSORED*** work is ***CENSORED***, and makes me want to ***CENSORED*** you in the ***CENSORED*** with a ***CENSORED*** until you ***CENSORED***.
I don’t expect every product you make to be perfect. I do, however, expect you not to lie to me and treat me like an idiot.
I’ve noticed a shift of power in organizations to the finance and accounting types and away from the inspiring leaders. There is no substitute for leadership.
Gun companies don’t make guns; they make money. The risk involved from lawsuits; costs associated with returns and repairs are vetted against how much they bring in on the front end and the calculation must always equal profit. The formula has never changed so forget any romantic ideas these companies were ever existent for anything else. Now it is true that some companies; usually the smaller and newer ones; have a profit formula that includes loyalty and quality and consummate customer service (Benchmade, Surefire come to mind). Do not expect anything less because your life is your responsibility. Buy a pistol; learn how it works; learn what breaks it and how to fix it yourself. Buy a case of ammo and attend training. Don’t confuse practicing on your own with “training”; which is done under direction…
I sincerely hope the guy from the major washing machine manufacturer was NOT from Maytag – he can rot in hell. What a jacked-up price and broke-down POS that Neptune thing was. It broke constantly and the only repair parts were ALWAYS in the middle of the Pacific on a slow boat from China. Local parts-reps, apparently aware of the upcoming tragedy, had stockpiled bits and pieces and were charging double-triple prices for ’em, and it was IMPOSSIBLE to get warranty-work done in a timely fashion.
It took months for Service to be completed and we finally got rid of the POS. I’ll NEVER buy another Maytag and hope that shit-brain and his #$@%&$* VP who dreamed up the debacle burn in hell.
I’d rather spend the money on a higher end weapon that is manufactured by company which isn’t shining me on than “save money” on a gun that needs to be fixed repeatedly.
I wonder how Ruger is looking these days…
This is totally driven by consumers and corporate greed. As it was said, 90% of firearms won’t have a full box of ammunition run through them, and I’d be willing to bet that that 90% all bought X because it was cheaper or brand loyalty. So if the company is going to make 90% of it’s profits on people who really don’t give a $#*!, then why should the companies. Now somebody brought up lawsuits and what not. Now the accuracy concerns that “YK” brought up, you can’t sue because it’s “not accurate enough”…did S&W ever give a guarantee? That is simply their “competition model”. As for a bad design that leads to safety issues, that seems like it could hold water. As Todd says, if it fails, people die. Hopefully it doesn’t take a lost life for that pressure to be felt, but it will probably take that, but then again, when “X” companies lawyers offer the $$$ to keep their mouth shut…
In addition guys, when people sue our gun companies, everybody loses, because prices will increase. The only way to make something happen is a total boycott, which for a big company like that, takes A LOT of effort to reach the fanboys to actually go along with it.
I agree that this is a real problem–but the “good old days” weren’t any better. Remember when Bangor Punta owned S&W? Or when the Colt 70’s series (now so beloved) came out? The big difference today is the Internet.
Problems get noticed faster and fixes get communicated to others who have the same problem. Forty years ago when you bought a lemon you had no way of knowing that others had the same problem or how to fix it.
None of that, of course, excuses corporate lying.
I’m just going to say this again:
In a world of compromise, some don’t.
There might be a particular reason the company that doesn’t compromise has higher priced guns….and it’s not because of fan-boys, the legacy, or 80mw phased plasma rifles they’re developing (ok that last one probably has a little to do with it).
Corporate Greed? Seriously? We’re not talking about the 1% here.
We’re talking about just taking a moment, building something correctly and not switching to an MIM part instead of a forged or cast part, etc, etc, etc.
The internet has promoted a level of scrutiny that’s never existed on companies.
Here’s a question I’d like to pose. Days of old? How many 50,000 round guns did we have back in the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s? How many of you were running 10, 15 and 20 thousands rounds through 1911’s? Sigs?
I’m in my early 20’s, and maybe I just don’t know, but… AFAIK, guns have never been made at some of the quality/performance levels as we’ve seen now. Is this stuff shady? Yeah. But are we seeing the best guns ever made from some companies? Yeah.
I’m just astonished that everybody ran 10’s of thousands of flawless rounds through their handguns before the 90’s and 2000’s came and everything went to crap. And let’s clear up flawless, I mean perfect ejection, perfect extraction, shooting 3-4” groupings off-hand at 25 yards. What shocks me, isn’t that companies make bad products from time to time, it’s that people re-engineer working products and make them not-working. That’s… I’m surprised a lot of people weren’t fired, that’s about all I can say.
Hmmm, would the company be Glock?
It’s too bad…all the great ones get the ‘too big to fail’ attitude and take this route. Look at cars for instance.
I’m glad that I just purchased a gen 3 with a prefix lower than LHZ. I’ll be purchasing two more from the same category. That means, no profit for glock on either the old models or the new ones that I won’t be buying. I know it doesn’t mean much to a large corporation but I’m casting my one vote as many times as I can afford.
I’m not sure you could ever expect QC problems to get to 99.95% even with the best testing proceedures but as a goal it is at least something to require from manufacturing.
Having design problems and sending it out when identified is never acceptable but you see that becoming standard practice. Use the money from sales of things you know do not work/meet spec and use that to fund the redesign to fix the problem.
I had the head of R&D once tell me that once a design was signed off, warranty issues came out of marketings budget and not his, so he did not care and the fix became another departments “issue”.
I had to deal with that corporate bull shit a number of time over the years.
I won’t claim Todd is talking about Glock, but his subject line is I hope appropriate for my comments. As a certified Glock Armorer (2011 via GSSF membership. Not LE. Not in business), while I found the course to be very good, I was still surprised by the lack of transparency and detail after– no updates, no notifications, no real details about the histories of parts. I still had to rely on the Internet to stay up to date with whatever Gen 4 updates were taking place such as the new ejectors. Not getting this updated information directly from Glock is really disconcerting.
I also am concerned that 2% failure was considered acceptable, which it really shouldnt if you consider them to be lifesaving devices as another commenter mentions. Companies with medical devices such as pacemakers and coronary stents with that kind of failure rate would have been shut down eitherby lawsuits or the Government. .
Unfortunately there isn’t any one company this issue applies to. Best I can tell, it is to a large extent the state of the industry as a whole.
Glock is a Farce.
Dave Sevigny leaving might be an indicator.
Something this site has failed to acknowledge.
what Tyler said…
I’m just going to say this again:
In a world of compromise, some don’t.
There might be a particular reason the company that doesn’t compromise has higher priced guns….and it’s not because of fan-boys, the legacy, or 80mw phased plasma rifles they’re developing (ok that last one probably has a little to do with it).
I am surprised that they did not tell him that he was limp wristing
dgbee
That is too funny!
Maybe gold dot is now considered to be ‘bad ammo’ by glock.
Oh well, end of an era.
If S&W was able to improve their M&P 9 accuracy problems, so they effected only 2-3 per cent of their pistols, down from the approximate 50 per cent now that won’t shoot, they would declare victory, and probably receive multiple quality awards.
1: The company in question was not Glock.
2: To all the folks saying that “it’s always been this way, the internet just makes it more transparent,” sorry, no. I’ve personally watched major QC program and policy changes occur over time at two major gun manufacturers. Just because things were never perfect doesn’t mean they were always like this.
Gee….I wonder where I could buy a gun built to a higher quality standard than Glock, SIG, Beretta or S&W……it might be german….it might be twice as much as a Glock……it might just be a company that doesn’t have a history of:
Phase 3 malfunctions, extractor problems, frame flexing with WML’s, early unlocking, unsupported chambers, mags that magically drop on their own or don’t drop free when you want them to, magazine spring tempering issues, improper nitrocarburizing, locking lug failures at 5000 rounds..should the list go on?
If only there were such a company!
Oh…..wait……there is….it’s not a myth, ya’ll are just ignoring them.
Perception is reality, even if it wasn’t Glock, the damage has been done. Glock CS failed and now it will take a while to rebuild it. They can blame the internet, limp wrists and internet ninjas, but they weren’t blaming the internet when glocks WERE the benchmark of an affordable and reliable sidearm.
For guys like me there are three choices. 1. Find glocks that are pre MIM manufacturing. 2. switch to S&W, which I’m not in a hurry to do because the glock 19, 23 and 30 fit my hand much better. 3. cough up some dough for an HK.
I’m going with option 1 for now.
If Glock is not the company in question in the original post then it’s disappointing to hear that there’s another one doing the same thing. Glock still isn’t off the hook and I suspect won’t be for another year or two seeing as how the internet can cut both ways.
Todd, Can u recommend a couple of brands for a
decent and affortable 1911?
Joe- I believe Glock has used MIM for many, many years. It is overall quality control that has slipped.
Alan- Wilson and Les Baer have a solid reputation when it comes to 1911 pistols.
I was at the KCMTOA conference last week, overheard a guy com-laining to the Glock rep about his G35 choking, he was wanting to buy a gen 4 G35 to get past the WML issues.
Glock rep told him with a straight face that all he needed to do was not tighten the mount screw on his Streamlight WML so much.
Yup, that will fix the problem.
I almost reached past the guy with the problem G35 and punched the Glock rep in the throat.
Federal Air Marshals don’t use Glocks! Now, I think you know what gun-company Todd is talking about. 🙂
Glock reps are the new used car salesmen.
excuse my ignorance, but what is “MIM”?
Re: Federal Air Marshals don’t use Glocks! Now, I think you know what gun-company Todd is talking about.
Excuse my ignorance, but what am I missing here…?