So as my days doing the “traveling instructor” thing appear to be coming to an end, I’ve been reflecting lately on the current state of the training community… and it’s made me a little sad. Then yesterday I met a young instructor from half way across the country and was reminded that there are still genuinely good guys out there who are more interested in teaching and shooting than money and ego.
When I first started training seriously twenty years ago, the first school I went to was a local outfit. You’ve never heard of it. You’ve never heard of any of the instructors. But they were professionals and they were enablers. They never took the “only we can teach it” attitude. They encouraged students to save up and go to Gunsite rather than take a repeat class from them.
If one of the few traveling instructors of the era — like Farnam or the incredible Ken Hackathorn — was going to be in the area they’d call around to their qualified students and say, “You should cancel your Pistol-3 with us next weekend and take this instead!” They weren’t looking to suck every possible dollar out of us. They wanted us to become the best shooters we could be… and they were humble enough to realize that meant seeking other, different ideas and instructors.
When I first started teaching seriously, it was under the auspices of first the NRA at their Headquarters range and then during my time working at both Beretta and SIG. As such, I was pretty much uninvolved in the business side of things and just showed up to teach what I was told, where I was told.
When I started out on my own in 2007, though, things were still the way I remembered them for the most part. There were a lot more instructors doing the high-end traveling road show thing now but most of us knew each other personally or at least through one another. Sure there were some cliques and some now-famous rivalries but for the most part it was still a bunch of guys who’d support one another.
The internet drives the industry now, of course, and I’m the last person who can complain about that. If not for M4Carbine.net, none of you would ever have known I existed. That site gave me the opportunity to establish myself and it was one of the former senior staff over there who invited me to teach the first pistol-training.com open enrollment class back in ’08. This blog was getting about 300 visitors a day before then. Now it sees over 7k on a typical day. I owe M4C 100% for that initial exposure.
But as training became bigger business, bigger business got involved in training. The booking houses (first Grey Group Training and now Alias) got started by one of the guys who runs M4Carbine.
There are some incredible positives to these booking houses. They bring a lot of great instructors into an area where maybe local hosts wouldn’t have the contacts to do it on their own. Instead of seeing one big name locally, now you get a chance to see a dozen. And usually only the best qualified, best vetted instructors get brought into the picture by these bookers because they can afford to be very select in whom they support. If I was going to list ten instructors off the top of my head that I’d recommend, odds are 80% of them are teaching for either Grey Group or Alias almost exclusively.
But there’s also a dark side to some of it. I ran afoul a few years back of the M4C/Alias guy and suddenly all the positive AARs about my classes got deleted from M4C. My account got deleted. Hosts trying to advertise my classes had their posts deleted and were in some cases banned from M4C.
As recently as last year there was a crazy online controversy that arose because one student in an Alias class wrote a class review on M4C that mentioned the instructor endorsed me… and the Alias guy (but not the instructor obviously) went ballistic that my name was mentioned positively. At one big facility where I’ve taught many times, Alias pushed them to stop allowing me to teach there at all! I’m thankful that they continue to invite me back regardless.
The booking houses take a percentage off every student’s enrollment (usually around 20% depending on the booker and the instructor) so they are motivated to get lots of students into classes. The amount of time and effort is pretty much the same whether it’s four students or forty but they make a lot more money with 40. Of course, on class day it makes a huge difference for the instructor… and the students!
I showed up as a guest to one once and there were more than thirty shooters in a class with just the one “name” instructor and one assistant. The booking company made thousands of dollars but the students suffered from lack of personal attention. It’s usually completely out of the instructors’ hands, too. I’ve talked to many of them and they show up amazed that their stated class limit (12, 14, whatever) was just ignored by the booking company and instead there are 20, 25 students standing around expecting miracles. Often the instructor isn’t told until the night before class how many students will be there because the booker is trying to push more students in at the last minute.
Again, that’s not to say everything about these companies is bad. As a matter of fact, just before my recent unpleasantness (see RampageForTheCure.org) I was approached by one and gave it some very serious thought. It’s very convenient for the instructor, removes a ton of administrative effort, gets you far wider exposure, and puts you in a group of good guys who are generally good at working together and promoting one another honestly and enthusiastically.
But that brings me back to the guy I met yesterday (who will remain anonymous so he doesn’t get dragged into my drama). When I met him, he didn’t act like we’re combatants in the marketplace. We’re not rivals. We’re not competitors. Sure, there may be people who pick between going to him or coming to me for a class some day. But who cares? I’m not crying over his success, nor he mine. I want more, better trained shooters out there because I love hanging out with good shooters. I don’t care how you got that way or whether I made money in the process.
I want more, better skilled instructors out there teaching students to be better shooters. They’re not rivals, they’re partners. They’re part of my community. They’re people whose ideas I can borrow and whose opinions I can solicit, and hopefully the same is true in reverse. And even if I think a guy’s certain technique in one area is stupid, we can still be friends and not talk crap about each other on the firing line in front of students.
And it’s not like any instructor has the time to teach every student available, anyway. Even at my busiest I was teaching less than 20 open enrollment classes a year. That’s about 250 students. If I can’t bring in 250 people out of the 10,000 or so who take classes each year, then I’ve got a completely different reason to hang up my instructor shirt.
Train hard & stay safe! ToddG
Oh…. No more “traveling instructor”. Does that mean… things are not looking hopeful? 🙁
Basically I cannot make a sure enough commitment to anything more than a few months out without risking cancelation. I’m not willing to put students through the trouble and expense of signing up for a class and then having it get canceled because I’ve got to schedule a week of treatment and two weeks of recovery when I’m supposed to be on the range working for them.
Such is life. Hopefully I’ll be teaching locally in the DC area on a pretty regular basis so anyone truly nuts enough can travel this way. 😎
Looks like I’ll be traveling to that cesspool DC sometime then. Finally got around to donating today as well. Positive mojo sent (as well as a generalized prayer to end this bump in the roads for everyone affected) your way Todd.
On other note, I tried to get into a Vogel class but the “big name” people never got back with me. Customer service is important.
Thanks on all fronts, Chip!
The formation of cliques is inevitable in any sufficiently large community. There are still instructors out there that enthusiastically endorse one another without talking trash, though they may increasingly be in the minority.
Paul Howe has praised other instructors in the past on his monthly newsletter. Hilton Yam and Tim Lau share tips from other instructors all the time. Todd shares things despite being a stationary instructor. :p
They’re still out there.
If you are willing to host a class with facilities, you don’t need the likes of GreyGroup or Alias for training. They will never get a dime from me, I’ll host my own classes! Excellent read, TLG!
Well written Todd, but then I would have expected nothing less.
It is indeed sad when the students get short changed. That may be a good short term profit for someone, but it does the entire industry harm in the long run IMHO.
I can tell you from experience that the instructors don’t like it either. I took a class from a well known teacher, and he found out on the day of the class that instead of 16 students, he had 25, and most of the extras had no business being there but had the cash to get the slots. He was incensed, and though he did his absolute best to teach everyone, it showed. I don’t hold it against him.
Nor would I, LHS. I’ve been to classes and talked to the instructors. They’re blindsided and it’s their image, their reputation, their ability to maintain safety, their ability to deliver good content that is all challenged and weakened by it.
What do you do, though? Tell nine people to get lost? Nope. You suck it up, you smile, you do your best. The good news is that, like I said, the instructors working these classes truly are the best in the business and they can make it work well enough that everyone gets home safe and sound and the students get something for their money.
I have nothing but respect for the instructors. Like I said, the majority of guys I’d recommend you take a class from work for bookers.
Todd: Maybe most people learned of you on M4 but don’t sell yourself short. I’ve never looked at M4. Instead, I started reading your stuff after seeing your comments on the M&P forum (I can no longer remember its name), where you were the commentator who made far the most sense. Your repeated advice to everyone to stop buying a lot of guns and start buying a lot of ammunition (and get some training) was perhaps the most intelligent thing I had read on a firearms forum up until that time.
This is a perfect example of the feast vs famine mindset.
Any idiot who thinks that your taking away their students, or their taking away your students are deluding themselves.
There is plenty of almost everything for everyone, except maybe time.
S
I hope you get back out on the road again someday Todd. Your AFHF class was most beneficial to yours truly.
Todd it was a honor and pleasure to have been part of your classes. I hope to see you out here in Abq in the future. You just may see me in D.C. getting my pistol-training.com fix!!!
Good luck Todd.
Well and and bang on.
As for short notice classes, I bet I could fill a class for you up here on short notice if you and the wife decided to holiday up here…
A True Leader has the confidence to stand alone, the courage to make tough decisions, and the compassion to listen to the needs of others.
He does not set out to be a leader, but becomes one by the quality of his actions and the integrity of his intent. In the end, leaders are much like eagles…They don’t flock, you find them one at a time.
Todd it was a honor and pleasure to have been part of your class, although I did so miserably.
Stay strong and never end the fight “Murph”
Fraternally yours
Jimmy Ward
Miserably?
For those who weren’t there, Jimmy and two of his good friends showed up to a class of mine a few years back. They’ve all been training longer than I’ve owned guns and I don’t mean shooting, I mean TRAINING. Multiple classes from multiple big name instructors annually. Plus the training they got from their agencies, etc.
What *I* taught was 180 out from what they were used to. Press-outs, stance, everything was different.
Usually, guys like that just stick to what they know, especially when they can do it at the level these guys could, just tearing things up like pros. Instead, all three of these guys give everything a try. They give it a chance. They crawl up each other’s backsides when they “slip” back into their old habits for the entire weekend. Heck, I could have left them to themselves, they were diagnosing each other better than I could.
In the end were they all converts to everything The Way of Todd? Not even close. Each one adopted and adapted as befit what worked best for himself. Press-out didn’t work for you? Don’t press-out. To their credit, each of them kept in touch and emailed questions and updates and honest critiques. That is the best kind of student, the one who is in class to think and learn but not follow blindly.
You guys will always be one of the most memorable gang of students I’ve ever had. Hope we get to shoot again soon. Train hard & stay safe!
Good writeup, Todd. Human greed spoils things too often… and while training with a good instructor is great, so many people just want to pay and take a class with “X” big name instead of practising, practising some more, and competing (well, that’s takes some effort).
I cannot take a class from you, but nevertheless I learn every day from your very knowledgeable and informative posts. Thanks a lot.
I will be praying for your recovery, keep up the fight!
Thank you, RNasser!
I’ve been shooting action pistol for two years and it seems the industry you describe is what I’m coming into. I had intended to take an advanced pistol course this year. However, after weeks of comparing instructors, instructor written philosophies, AARs, locations, requirements (this guy doesn’t allow reloads, etc,) it became a full time job. It just isn’t worth it, at least to me.
It very much reminds me of booking an outfitted hunt whether through a booking agent or not. How many people in camp? Do you have the outfitter or an out of work cowboy guiding you? It turns recreation into a second job.
So, I’ll skip the advanced course, shoot more ammo on drills and take local course(s) from people I know.
Best wishes Todd, Jerry
Don’t get discouraged, man. More effort may be required but the value of the training can pay off in big ways.
You can’t hang it up yet. I still need to make it out to one of your classes so you can teach me the ways of the HK LEM 🙂
Great article and I know we all appreciate the insight on some of the training giants out there. All the best!
All I read was that you will be teaching in the DC area. Excellent, now put up some dates so I can go. Flights to DC from AZ are not cheap and I need to plan ahead. I’ve been waiting too long! Start wasting time playing on the Xbox. Come on already!!!
Todd,
Many thanks for all the knowledge you’ve shared, since way back when I stumbled upon 9×19.com (or whatever it was called?) back in the day. I was lucky enough to get a couple one on one training sessions with you in the pre-PT.com class days. I learned quite a bit, and enjoyed shooting with you a few times. I look forward to getting some time back to take a class or two in the near future, and really hope you’re back to 100% ASAP. I feel like between here and PF.com, the accumulated knowledge, and the generosity with which it is shared, go way beyond what the average guy like me should expect nowadays, and it’s greatly appreciated.
Thanks.
My business partner and I had to have a serious discussion about whether we wanted to be “successful” on the business side, or be true to ourselves and the love of “the art”. #2 won out. There are no business models for telling your students to go train with other people…essentially, take your training dollars elsewhere because it would be good for them and their journey. There are no business models where you do things against “policy” because its the right thing to do, like giving a last minute refund to a group that is putting a class in the “red” because you can understand that emergency’s happen in life. Overall, it comes down to when money gets involved, the brotherhood, fraternity, and “good will” often leaves the room. It is sad that many or us who used to be in the same brotherhood, are no longer because we are not playing on the same “Team”. On a positive note, there are still enough of our mentors and friends who are “fellow trainers” and not on a team that we can still work with and enjoy regular phone calls and the “hey, what do you think about this” or “I have an idea on a technique or way of doing something that I want to run by you”. That is gold, and is nothing but beneficial to the students. Up until recently we were taking more classes than we taught, and still consider ourselves lifetime students, so we see both sides.
Todd,
It’s too bad your not going to be able to get on the road again in the foreseeable future. Looks like I’ll be trying to get to the DC area sometime soon.
I haven’t yet had the pleasure of attending a class with you, but I have been building my skill with the intention of being prepared to take classes with you.
I’ve been a long time reader of this page (since early in the P30 test), though I haven’t posted a comment before. Thank you for your candid communication and your knowledge which you have generously shared with us. Through this, you truly set the foundation for my current success as a shooter; for which I cannot thank you enough. I have a ton more to learn and greatly desire to learn with your instruction first-hand.
Thanks for all you’ve done and shared with this site and on forums. It has been a huge blessing to many aspiring shooters.
I hope you are soon back to 100%. God bless!
Once again, I have missed all the drama. I had no idea. From the point of view of the naive new guy, it looks like one big happy family. But I never read at M4Carbine or at 9×19.com.
I just started coming over here to read Todd’s writings because I do whatever Tamara does, more or less.
Todd –
Your training and more importantly your attitude toward training is some of the best I have attended. Not just from a shooters perspective, but from an instructor perspective as well. Not only did I steal some drills and knowledge, I also stole ideas on how to better run a range and help students improve. I hope to see you on the road again soon.
Bill
I appreciate all the kudos, guys, but that’s not the intent of the post. I think nyeti hit it out of the park: it’s about the students.
It may be for you and the other dedicated instructors; unfortunately for some in the industry it has become about their own fame, press, ego, and financial incentives…
Altho’ ancient history, please know your efforts were always appreciated. You are a good guy.
Excellent post, but you get this part wrong —
“I’ve talked to many of them and they show up amazed that their stated class limit (12, 14, whatever) was just ignored by the booking company and instead there are 20, 25 students standing around expecting miracles. Often the instructor isn’t told until the night before class how many students will be there because the booker is trying to push more students in at the last minute.”
You mean to say that Alias and Grey Group force guys like Pat McNamara, Larry Vickers, Frank Proctor and Northern Red to take more students than they want? Are you having a laugh? I don’t see those guys being bullied into anything they don’t want to do by Alias/Grey Group.
While you point out that the booking companies take 20% and therefore have an incentive to allow more students into class, you don’t mention that the instructors take the rest and have an even greater incentive to allow more students into the class.
Bottom line…the instructors can pick up the phone and tell Alias to cap the students at X numbers. The buck stops with them. Don’t pass that off on the booking company.
Otherwise, well said.
It’s refreshing to read that passion still matters more than the business side. DC area, eh? Could happen….
Bill — I get what you’re saying and sure, if it happens every class for years the instructor is complicit. In my experience it doesn’t happen that way. I’ve talked to the instructors. They are literally blindsided sometimes.
And no, you can’t just randomly pick four guys who flew from three states away and tell ’em to pack it up and go home because there’s no room at the inn. (not saying you suggested otherwise, Bill) That’s what makes these instructors phenomenal. They make it work. They change what needs to be changed and they give the students their money’s worth even when the backend admin stuff gets FUBAR.
I’ve talked with enough of the instructor about their “rage moments” with the booker after such an overfilled class to know it does happen. Not frequently enough to quit the booker, though… because the booker is smart and knows how far he can push each of his instructors without going over the edge (too often).
A lot of this isn’t holding water. I met almost all the instructors from Alias at SHOT. I only missed Larry Vickers. Everyone one of them spoke very highly of Alias. Which exact instructors did you talk to about this?
Or are you just stirring the pot because you hate the guy?
When these classes are advertised, is the class limit made clear? I’m asking from a class-taker perspective, not instructor. If so, how about fees, are they non-refundable? Just thinking how I would react when I pay money for a class size of 15, but 25 are there, I’d probably be walking out and demanding money back. Yeah, I may miss instruction by a great teacher, but it may be more than an implied contract.
mer — Good question. You’d have to check their website.
I always list class size limits.
I’ve also on occasion had as many as two more people on the line than the class max advertised, so I cannot claim to have perfectly clean hands. The “plus ones” tend to represent repeat students and/or people I know from government contract classes who are vetted to the point that I feel confident they’re unlikely to represent a draw on resources, and they get told that in advance (dude, you are more than likely to come to the class but I might not be standing over your shoulder watching you in particular as much as the other students).
But that’s a pretty long paragraph justifying it to myself so maybe a little look inward on my part is in order while I’m sitting here criticizing others. 😎
Excellent post. I am not one for drama of any sort or kind but hearing things like this is eye opening.
I have been in classes that were over crowded and it blew.
I totally agree with the instructor mindset and perceived competition.
Thanks, voodoo_man!
That is awful to have a booking company overbook firearms training classes! Don’t they realize that it’s not just wrong — but, dangerous — to compromise quality as a result of capitalizing
on quantity?
Well…I hope you post class dates in the DC area soon! From what I have learned from your posts and this site in general has made me improve leaps and bounds as a shooter. Now hurry up, get better, and post class dates. I don’t mind the drive. 🙂
Tim — Thanks and I hope to do just that soon!
Thanks Todd. I can understand a slight overbooking to ensure a full class if a couple cancel, but I think there is a big difference between 14 for a class of 12 and 20 for a class of 12. 2 extras shouldn’t be that much to handle, even if they aren’t known quantities. It sounds like it depends a lot on the instructor and any support staff/extra hands they have.
I knew something sounded fishy about this so I did a little research on my own.
Not one of the Grey Group or Alias instructors I contacted has had any conversations like this with you.
Current Score:
2 Instructors actually knew you.
5 Never heard of you
2 Had very negative things to say about you
2 Did not remember you without help in several replies
2 I could not find any contact info.
No matter what not one of them has had a conversation with you on anything in your blog post.
Thanks, Charlie. I am happy for folks to draw their own conclusions about your day taking to everyone in the industry. Good thing no one was busy today! 😎
I was going to say I wish you all the best in your health and your profession and that I will continue reading your website here but since I’ve found out you simply do not exist I will have to find something else to say. Why bother though, you aren’t real. The internet has been nothing but one big disappointment. Is this website really here? Does your wife know about this?
Awesome!
Charlie, I am a bit confused, your post seems to indicate that there are 13 (2+5+2+2+2) instructors at Alias & GG, but as currently shown on their respective websites they list only nine instructors, as noted below:
Alias:
Kyle Defoor
Ken Hackathorn
Mike Pannone
Larry Vickers
Pat McNamara
Frank Proctor
GG:
Bob Vogel
Northern Red/J.D. Potynsky
Southnarc/Craig Douglas
Of these 9 instructors, I know 6 of them. In previous conversations all 6 reported knowing Todd. While I am aware that one of these six has behaved rather poorly towards Todd, the other five have all either been neutral or positive in their comments regarding Todd.
The available evidence leads me to believe that you likely fabricated your comments above.
Best wishes to Todd. Thanks for posting this stuff; I trust the things you have said.
For me, I’m just a civilian guy who walks his dog in a city where there have been 11 shootings so far this year, goes to the grocery store, gets gasoline, goes to work, etc. i don’t go to foreign wars, I don’t bust into drug houses, etc. I’m not having a rivalry with members of another drug gang. I just need to know how to defend myself when some criminal gets inside my safety zone by employing some conversational ruse or physically shunting me into a danger spot as I walk, etc. When that happens, I will need to know how to use hands, the Spyderco in my pocket, and my handgun at contact distances out to maybe 3 feet, maybe 6 feet. I don’t need to shoot 2 inch circles from 25 feet away. I don’t need to know 6 different ways to reload a magazine in the gun. But, to get to the CQB or ECQB training with most instructors, I am required to sit through a whole bunch of “lower level” classes where we do a bunch of stuff that I’ll never need or that I have already done on my own at the couple thousand times I’ve been to the range over the course of my life, etc. And, the fees that get charged these days for classes are ridiculous. Then factor in travel time, time off of work, hotels, cost of ammo, etc, and it just is not worth it to me, not at all. Plus, nowadays, MY IMPRESSION is that these guys don’t teach anything that is not already available via the Internet or DVD’s. What they DO is to give the opportunity for the student to spend some recreational time “training” with a big name person standing next to them or next to some other student at the range that day. Sort of like letting a mediocre college football player spend 3 days “training” with the Dallas Cowboys. Sure, it is cool, and all of that, but it is not more useful than watching an equal number of hours of YouTube videos. Then you got the situation where every person coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan suddenly becomes “former Delta Force / now pistol instructor” and everybody and their grandmother is a pistol instructor. Really, what the heck does patrolling an Afghan village or going on big time raids to kill Osama have to do with me going trying not to get mugged while walking into PetsMart? I’ve decided NOT to get additional formal training. Not until “guns” become less popular and these “training” schools go by the wayside. I am convinced that gun training, or at least a huge percentage of what passes for gun training, is just recreation. I’ve got enough things to keep me recreated.
Trevor — I can’t speak for every instructor on the list but of the ones DocGKR mentioned, I’ve taken classes from:
Defoor (when he was at Blackwater/USTC); I would absolutely recommend him and his program. He’s a great instructor and a phenomenal shooter.
Ken Hackathorn; been to multiple classes and would pay money just to be in the room to hear him talk about guns.
Larry Vickers; known him for longer than he’s been on the public circuit, his resume and reputation speak for themselves… anyone who can survive me as a CARBINE student has to have talent 😎
Bob Vogel; obviously a great shooter but also a genuinely good instructor and coach, I’d take a class from him again in a heartbeat.
Craig Douglas; another personal friend whose AMIS class was ground-breaking for me and whose ECQC program completely reset the standard on what a hands-on force on force high stress training curriculum should be.
Some of those guys put out videos and books. But no book or DVD can watch what you’re doing and fix mistakes for you. I’m not saying video and books are bad. I’ve got a mountain of both in my collection. But direct interaction with world class people is a lot different than watching them run a drill once on a TV screen.
Classes are expensive. And I’m obviously biased because it’s my main revenue stream. But there’s just no substitute, and when you’re a top guy in huge demand like the people in that list above, you can demand top dollar. Econ 101.
Todd, I am sorry to hear that you are not likely to travel anymore. I wish you all the best, hope I get a chance to train under you again and will work to ensure I am at the level as a shooter to take maximum advantage of your instruction.