Two more federal agencies ban the SERPA for their personnel due to safety concerns: USAF OSI and HHS OIG. Thanks to F-Trooper05 for the post. We will of course nonetheless hear the continued bleating of people who insist that it’s not the holster’s fault and that “proper training” would have solved all regardless of the fact that these issues are happening at one of the country’s premiere law enforcement training centers.
Proper training is to keep the trigger finger indexed until the sights have aligned on the intended target and the decision to fire has been made. By definition, telling someone to move his trigger finger during the draw, especially when that movement involves applying pressure in the direction of the trigger, is improper training. And hey, look… it leads to accidents! Whodathunkit?
I swear, there are days I think if someone designed a gun with the trigger in front of the muzzle there’d be guys on the internet swearing it was awesome and you just need better safety habits to use it…
Train hard & stay safe! ToddG
(thanks to vcdgrips for the correction!)
(thanks to chuck for the confirmation)
I’m shocked!!!
Actually, I’m not.
I find it sad that someone has to shoot themself in the leg for an agency to realize that these things are dangerous. How many more accidents need to happen before these holsters are recalled? Unfortunately I think that will never happen.
Serpas may not be a safe holster but neither is pointing a loaded weapon at your ball sack which Todd does on a daily basis. Any mechanical device can and will fail. Everyone makes their own choices and must live with them.
Hmm, haven’t heard of a pattern of ball sack shootings occurring off of appendix carry. If someone has they are welcome to enlighten.
At some point actuarial sensibilities need to pierce SERPA apologist skulls. If an over the counter medicine, motor vehicle, pogo stick, whatever had a higher rate of death and injury than a functional equivalent few would think twice about switching over to the safer option. Why an unsafe piece of plastic inspires such rabid adulation is beyond me.
….what about the location of the safety device of M1,M14 and Mini14?//////… instead po putting the gun OFF safe…you pull the trigger instead;)
Serpa and appendix carry are two methods I would feel comfortable with a traditional DA/SA. Striker fired or single action with the lighter trigger weights? Not so much.
When an agency issues a holster to a person, that person is NOT making his own choice.
I do not see a problem with the Serpa. Just because you are a government agent does not mean you are a Navy Ranger Delta Seal commando. As a police officer I know many of my brother officers cannot pass Aim Slow, Hit Anything. Having a badge makes you know more of a shooter than having a Camero makes you a race car driver. There are also many carry methods I don’t feel are safe such as appendix carry with a striker fired weapon, mexican carry with a striker fired weapon, Miami Classic shoulder holster where your gun points at people behind you and some others not mentioned. I have seen the latest tacti-cool ninja slings catch on triggers and fire rifles. I have seen a Glock 26 Mexican carried shoot a fellow officer in his ass in Walmart. I have seen a police chief cook his gun in the oven by accident until it fired. Just because one person has trouble does not mean others will. People buy Serpas because they are cheap. An XD and a Serpa are a rednecks wet dream. If your worried about blowing off a body part get some training and buy better equipment. I’m glad I now know that since I have a badge I’m Todd Jarrett. I can’t wait to tell the guys in the squad.
Last thing. Remember the federal agent that shot himself in front of a classroom full of kids. He must have been using a Serpa because us police officers never mess up.
Final thing. I know I know. I am not knocking any persons ideas or opinions. Just telling you mine. Anything no matter how remotely far fetched is possible. My claim to fame is I once shot a guy hiding under a mobile home with a 147 grain 9mm and it bounced off his damn skull knocking him unconscious. I then not knowing he was out cold sent in a K9 which proceeded to turn him into a McDonald’s happy meal. After he still doesn’t come out we shoot a little more for good measure. Finally I crawl under and place under arrest said bad guy. After he revived from his massive 9mm headache he proceeded to sue us for millions of dollars. Which we settled out of court. So yes anythings possible but it does not mean you rednecks need to toss your Serpa in the trash bin.
QUOTE:
As a police officer I know many of my brother officers cannot pass Aim Slow, Hit Anything.
END QUOTE:
That tends to be true with the majority of officers.
Hey Joe, can I have your autograph?
Rey Mariono,
“….what about the location of the safety device of M1,M14 and Mini14?//////… instead po putting the gun OFF safe”
What about it? It’s a dumb place to put a safety, and you’ll get no argument from me on that point.
A lot more SERPAs out there than appendix carriers. If people started shooting their junk off we might see federal agencies banning those, but most of the Feds I work with couldn’t carry appendix due to their Dickie-dos.
I welcome the SERPAs as a $35 alternative to some of the horrible nylon, plastic, and cheap leather rigs available at that price point. While the holster itself isn’t perfect, the paddle attachment is awesome and the best I’ve seen, bar none.
The ALS is a better retention design, but the holster and the paddle suck in terms of concealability.
Both are specifically and recently disapproved by my fed agency for 1911s. Ok for Glocks and Sigs, though. Go figure.
I have no idea how the Serpa paddle can be so awesome when they break so often.
@Rodneqy: there is a hell of a lot of difference between AIWB and a fundamentally flawed piece of gear like the Serpa.
Where does AIWB require using trigger finger to unholster?
oh yeah..only if you are using a serpa.
I’ve never broke one of their paddles and I’ve been using SERPAs for years. I’ve never seen one of their paddles broken, and they seem like they are the issue holster to about a dozen local agencies for detective use.
I have modified all of mine with a piece of skateboard tape on the release. This means that the release is activated by my natural draw stroke with my finger extended straight – no inward pressure or curling required. I think as issued they are not a good general purpose issue item, but then again, the same exact thing was said about Glocks when they came out, hence the NY series triggers…
Fixer,
When does the SERPA require you to point the gun at a part of your own body – yeah, only if you are carrying one AIWB.
Sheesh, this silly AIWB/SERPA analogy won’t die despite its apple and orange nature. All AIWB holsters point the barrel in a direction which can make one nervous. The SERPA, however, requires one to waggle his finger proximate to the drawstroke regardless of holster placement, causing nervous moments whenever a SERPA is in play.
I teach my share of new pistol students and hate it when they show up for class with a striker fired pistol and a SERPA because it means I’ll be standing on their strong side for most of class yelling at them progressively louder as they continue to fail to get their finger properly indexed ’cause it’s busy hitting that stupid switch and then getting lost in transition during the rest of the draw stroke. We know what the costs can be, what value does that variable add, particularly where new shooters are concerned?
$$$, yu’ve never seen one break? Check these out…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuHWF1568U0&feature=youtube_gdata
http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid53221775001?bckey=AQ~~,AAAACnIIBGk~,NZYO3xUDM_HmzYYpFSh6tKdqfRye3V9a&bctid=1155868233001
I have not yet entered a canine in this contest, but do see a difference between AIWB carry and the SERPA. To operate safely, one requires practice and care for reholstering, when a shooter is most likely to be able to (and should) take their time. There are even options as to pistols which are better suited than some to the method. The other requires using the trigger finger for something other than pressing the trigger, at a time when the primitive monkey inside is screaming “Now! Now! Now! I’m gonna die!”
There are refinements on these differences, but I won’t be using either. One, because I acknowledge that I am unlikely to implement the practice time and change of hardware. The other, because I have seen how easily that finger goes to the trigger.
Want more hits on you web site?
Post up a “anti-SERPA” blog.
Nice one, Jody!
I’ve been using the Serpa now for 3 years with a springfield xd and a glock 19. Ive never had a concern at all, I don’t even see how it would be possible unless you are a fool and can’t control your own trigger finger. STRAIGHT AND OFF THE TRIGGER UNTILL YOU INTEND TO FIRE.
“Ive never had a concern at all, I don’t even see how it would be possible unless you are capable of human error under stress.”
FTFY.
You know what they say there is an ass for every saddle! If you wanna run a serpa go for it but dont complain if you shoot yourself in the leg.
This just boggles my mind. It’s like when you own a Ferrari and somebody insults it. Then you might either defend it or just because you know better you will just ignore the owner of a jalopy that wants to challenge you.
But to the driver of the jalopy (SERPA guys) why go out of your way to defend it and say it’s the best in the world? Because it is cheap, has a retention device and it’s made out of plastic?
If you want retention that is safer by far, less likely to break and lock up your gun in the holster and will never give you an AD……wait for it…….here it comes…. a thumb break retention device on your holster. It’s been around for probably as long as holsters have been made. Tried and tested and not controversial at all. Some guys still use it in IDPA (why I don’t know but nonetheless). It’s safe and it never fails.
As for this comparison of a holster vs a carry style? Really? That doesn’t sound like apples vs grapes.
(I had to change the fruit completely because it seems some SERPA guys don’t get the apples vs oranges already posted somewhere above)
@ TAM if your under that much stress you don’t need to handle a fire arm period, lol. Look I’m just one gun fighter, the serpa is what we are issued, I never said it was the best, but I shure hate when people blaim the equipment for their own inadequacies. And if you don’t know what an 18 Bravo is or does google it.
18 Bravo,
Not to diminish your experiences but they are not the totality of the experience with the Serpa. In addition to the noted trigger finger issue there are many other problems with the Serpa including that it breaks often or locks up and disallows one to get their pistol out at a time when they may really need it.
That one is FORCED to draw with the trigger finger straight and keep it that way is also an issue. The bent trigger finger indw has proven over the past few years to be a getter way to do business, thus carrying a Serpa disallows one to use what is a “best practice” TTP. That alone should make the Serpa unattractive to folks who carry guns “for serious”.
$$$,
I have seen literally dozens of broken Serpa paddles, so much so that we cation folks who insist on using the paddle to inspect the holster often. One of our detectives broke his holster clean off of the paddle by simply sitting down in a chair in a restaurant.
Arrrggg, damn it. The above should include “The bent trigger finger index…”
Also “caution”.
18 Bravo,
I’m well aware of the MOS, thank you.
And if you are one, thank you for your service. (I don’t mean to be cynical; in two decades in the gun business, I’ve met a thousand 18 Bravos for every 91 Bravo.)
I am not an 18 Bravo, I’m just some chick. Every time I have had to draw a pistol, I have found it to be an amazingly stressful experience. You’ll pardon me if I want to minimize my chances for a screwup.
Amazing how much emotion a crappy holster can elicit.
I had 2 SERPAs and threw them in the burn barrel after a tiny pebble locked one up so tight that I almost had to Dremel my Glock out of it. This was long before reports started surfacing of people having ND’s.
Most of the trainers I know do not allow them in their classes anymore, unless you are required to use them by your dept/agcy.
I do not see the SERPA as an inherently defective product. I do not see it as a dangerous device. I do see lots of shooters who are dangerous, and it’s not really a function of the holster. The number of fingers I see inappropriately on triggers of firearms pointed in unsafe directions is astounding. If a shooter is unable to control a finger, maybe he/she should find a new hobby or vocation. On The SERPA holsters I have tried, the trigger finger is not proximate to the trigger. Because the lever acts to lift the retention tab out of the trigger guard, the part you push is actually well above the trigger, causing the finger to be along the slide on the draw.
As for malfunctions, maybe certain models are susceptible to “pebble blockages” causing an inability to depress the release, but it appears that the manufacturer made reasonable design accommodations to prevent this. On mine, the gap around the retention release is small enough that a rock entering the space would not interfere. At any rate, there is an easy fix, which they likely have already addressed between early models and later models.
Of course, there may be a failure mode which could be catastrophic, but very few simple machines are both fully robust and perfectly safe.
While at Front Sight recently, they were obsessed with my SERPA. I had clipped off the retention tab on the lever (permanently disabling the retention) since they are banned there. I like the holster because it allows adjustment of the ride angle. It also provides good retention without a strap to catch the trigger or jam into the holster when reholstering (which I did see repeatedly during my course there.)
This issue appears to be another example of internet amplification of things which don’t deserve obsession.
Lin,
I carry a thumb break holster by policy. They are not foolproof and have caused ADs – the retention strap into the trigger guard. Nothing in this business is foolproof, and everything requires training.
Chuck – I defer to your greater amount of experience with the paddle. I havent seen it myself but the cheaper “Sportster” line is very common and even more poorly constructed.
I would submit that the SERPA vs AIWB is relevant here – Todd advocates the AIWB and disparages the SERPA. Both may force you to violate one of the cardinal gun safety rules, and therefore are controversial.