(aka, Glock 17 gen4 Endurance Test: Week Zero)
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548 rounds |
5 stoppages | 0 malfunctions | 0 parts breakages |
Well that didn’t work out quite the way I’d hoped.
The photo above was round #62 through the gun, a near textbook stovepipe. It was followed shortly thereafter by a second at round #188, then two more ejection failures at #230 and #398. At that point, I decided it was time to call it quits. After lunch with a buddy, he asked to try the gun and one hundred forty-four rounds later (#542) he had another stoppage. All of the stoppages were with American Eagle 124gr FMJ which has proven reliable in a number of other guns.
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To say it was a frustrating day would be an understatement.
First thing I did when I arrived at the range was field strip the gun. Sure enough, my slide fell within the unfortunate production run that lacked the proper recess cut for the recoil assembly (I would call it a lack of counterbore in the spring box; Glock calls it a flat nose ring). Regardless of what you call it, it requires a non-standard recoil spring (identified as 0-2-1) which Glock offers, at least for the time being. My biggest concern with the “flat nose ring” slides is that because they’re not standard production there is no telling whether Glock will continue to make the non-standard spring assembly available forever. Also, any aftermarket devices designed to replace the recoil assembly probably won’t take these guns into account. Still, in the grand scheme of things, if it works it works and I was not deterred.
Next I tried to detail strip the gun to install the action components I like to use: a “-” connector and a NY1 trigger spring. However, disassembly was rather difficult… far from the norm for a Glock. The trigger pin was so tight in the gun that the standard method of removing it by wiggling the slide catch lever wouldn’t work. In fact, the slide catch lever had absolutely no horizontal play whatsoever. Finally, after consulting with a Glock expert (and armorer instructor) I resorted to having someone help me “gently” knock the pin out with a punch and mallet.
After forty five minutes spent trying to do ten minutes worth of work, it was finally time to shoot.
First up, I did a Dot Torture at seven yards to get acquainted with the Ameriglo i-dot Pro sights and the trigger. I scored a 47, dropping one shot on dot #3, one shot on dot #7, and one on dot #8. All of the misses were a result of poor trigger presses, not the sights.
Next I planned to take three F.A.S.T. runs. The first run went fairly well.
- 4.98 (-1 head): 1.68, .42 / 2.26 / .22, .21, .19
I knew that my reloads with the Glock were going to take some work. I’m used to using my trigger finger on a paddle (P30/HK45) instead of my thumb on a button, and the different grip angle of the Glock has me trying to insert the magazine out of alignment. My second run might have been better, but on the last round I had the #62 stoppage. I didn’t even bother with a third attempt.
I shot Tom Jones’ great Bullseye 1000 test next, scoring 835 – 9X. The G17 proved to be incredibly accurate, turning in unsupported standing 5-shot groups of 2″ at 25yd without much effort. Again, the 7# trigger pull and wide front sight of the i-dot Pro did not seem to hinder my performance. I had no stoppages during this test, even when shooting weak hand only. It’s also worth noting that I used Federal 124gr +p HST during the BE1000, though.
Next up was some speed work to get acquainted with the giant orange front sight and the pistol’s reset. I shot 7yd Bill Drills and was easily getting my hits in under two seconds. However, it was during this phase of the test that I had the #188 and #230 stoppages.
At that point, knowing folks would point to anything non-stock on the gun as a possible cause, I removed the Vickers slide catch (which is outstanding, by the way). I also started varying my shooting to see if there was any consistency to the stoppages. I shot with a weak grip, I shot while purposely slacking my wrists, I even fired some shots were I jerked the frame backwards as I broke the shot (the true cause of what most people identify as “limp wrist” problems). The gun worked every time. Then, right as I was about the write off the three stoppages as break in, I had another during some slow fire. It clearly wasn’t the slide catch. It clearly wasn’t limp wristing. It clearly wasn’t happening only in rapid fire. The gun was just fubar.
I had lunch with friend Rob Curtis from Military Times and of course described to him what was going on with the Glock. He told me that he’s put almost a thousand rounds through his G19 gen4 without a problem and asked if he could try my 17. So we packed up and went back to the range. He made it through eight magazines without a problem and must have been thinking I’m just a limp wristing fool. Then on the next mag, his 144th round, he had an ejection failure. That was #542 and the death knell for the pistol.
Between the G19 gen4 that I returned last month due to reliability problems and today’s G17 issues, my impression of the gen4 9mm guns is rather poor. Having said that, I’ve seen a number of students come through class using both 17’s and 19’s without problem. Two weeks ago I even used a borrowed G17 gen4 in Atlanta to teach for a weekend and the only stoppage I had was a premature lockback that was shooter induced thanks to the extended slidestop on the gun.
So I know there are gen4 9mm’s out there running well, and I’m not condemning them. But I’m 0-for-2 at this point and don’t see putting more ammo into a third gun in hopes that I’ll finally get a good one. For me, personally, I can’t trust a gen4 9mm enough to carry it right now.
Glock is supposed to be sending me a replacement for my original G19. I’ve now asked them to change it from a gen4 to a gen3 (preferably RTF2, but I’ll take what I can get). As for this gun, I’m waiting for some options to sort themselves out before deciding what to do next.
But there’s an HK P30 in my holster as I type this.
(and if you still don’t get the PMS reference… check the serial number of the pistol, it’s right there on the slide in all the photos)
Train hard & stay safe! ToddG
Previous Glock 17 gen4 Endurance Test posts at pistol-training.com:
- When Will It Stop?
- Announcement
Well that sucks. Please keep us posted on the customer service part of this test.
Perhaps a SIG P226 E2 or P229 E2? Sorry about the Glock, I am sure YOU will be lamed for the problems though. Already seen it one site, too bad. Those of us that know you, know you wouldn’t be dishonest in a test like this. Hope to see another gun up soon, you do have all that ammo to burn through!
I knew if anyone could get a bum Glock, it’d be you, Todd.
And a test is a test. I do feel vindicated in my strong hesitation to touch Gen4 until it’s been around a few more years. We learned from our experience with the M&P compact (thanks to you) that there are consequences to being an early adopter.
I hope you do still find a way to test the Gen4s, but this has been educational for everyone. Looking forward to more investigation.
Until then, I’ll keep carrying my Gen 3s.
Bummer dude.
I called it. I knew this would happen with these stupid Gen 4’s. They should have just changed the ergo’s on them and left the internals alone. My Gen 3 runs all day and has tens of thousands of rounds w/out any failures. This has to be a record for shortest endurance test. How sickening.
I have a Gen4 Glock 23, no issues with it yet, but I love my HK’s, never had a single failure in any of them.
Todd,
Dude this sucks!!!! I was hoping that it would work much better.
So if you get a gen 3 are you planning on using it as the 2011 test gun?
What about testing a Gen 4 in .40?
My Gen 2 has been flawless, but my RTF2 Gen 3 17 has had more issues than I like out of a carry gun (average of 1 malfunction per 1000 rounds).
My P2000 is coming up on 20k with a single malfunction (old abused 10 round magazine) and even my Kahr PM9 has been flawless for over a 1000 rounds.
C’mon Glock get your act together.
btw: I take delivery of a P30 next week, we’ll see how it runs.
Unbelievable…..I bought my Gen3 19 because I was afraid they would stop making them.. GEN 3 quality took a hit too with the cheaper Grey Finish On slide and barrels.
Ill keep my Gen 3 19 and 26 untill i have issues..
Wouldn’t it be fair that a Gen 4 with the proper nose ring cut or the proper spring be the best option for a test? Glock has identified a problem with the flat nose ring/older design RSA. For the record, I had a Gen 4 19 but am only running Gen 3s until stuff gets sorted out. I’m not denying there are fleas, but I am invested in Glock’s products and want them to do well. However, wouldn’t the latest revisions be more appropriate for a test? Isn’t it kinda like running an M&P with known first generation parts, having problems and writing it off?
Do a PX4! (yes I know you’re on record about the rotating barrel… put it to the test! :p)
“What about testing a Gen 4 in .40?” — PRDATOR
Except I don’t have tens of thousands of rounds of .40 ammo sitting in my locker, and I’m not shelling out $10k+ to buy more ammo for this year.
“Wouldn’t it be fair that a Gen 4 with the proper nose ring cut or the proper spring be the best option for a test?” — Sean
If “Glock has identified a problem with the flat nose ring/older design RSA” then why are NIB guns still on shelves for people to buy? The gun was built recently enough that a very busy suburban gun shop had this one in stock. Not to mention that my G19 gen4, which came directly from Glock and had the recessed nose ring/counterbored spring box also had numerous almost identical stoppages. I understand where you’re coming from and I don’t disagree that a gun built yesterday might have run better, but that’s not what I had available. I’m certainly not ready to invest more money into beta testing a third gen4.
Weak sauce.
T
I kinda went through a similar progression.
The RTF2’s are great, I hope they send you one, the guys who whine about them being too harsh don’t shoot enough IMO, F’ing great, a Glock with a better grip, period.
That said, too bad x 1000 that Glock didn’t just stick to evolving the polymer with the Gen4 guns, the “SF” form and the optional backstraps are winners along the redesigned mag button, but, the new recoil spring is a disaster.
Sucks you got anvearlier one without the recess too, pretty much an orphan, seems Gen4 perfection isn’t so perfect…
Thanks for the honest reporting, I’m sure there are at least 10 posts on Glocktalk already calling you a dick, good for you, thanks for the articulate review, your shooting-ability is beyond reproach and I’m sure there are a few regulars over their who pissed about it which makes me smile.
Typos = iPhone
Holy disappointment!
I second the motion for a SIG SAUER E2. Thank you for the excellent reporting.
Actually, so far at least, most of the discussion on other forums has been very civil. I certainly can’t blame someone who’s never heard of me for asking aloud if I limp wristed the gun, used handloads with no gunpowder, or secretly work for S&W. 8)
All the more reason that I’m astronomically thankful to Robert for spending a little time on the range shooting the pistol to verify that it was the gun and not me.
And that is why I’m Sooooo happy with my Gen 3 Glocks 23,32,17,26,27 (no 19 but he 23 and 32 will do fine for the medium size Glocks.)
I don’t have any problems with ANY of my glocks, and I shoot the 27 and 26 very often.
Guess I’ll wait a year or so for the kinks to work out of the new Glocks.
This should teach Glock to leave ‘perfection’ ALONE. All they had to do is change the grips some and maybe jazz up the slide. But leave the internals ALONE!
If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
While I am admittedly not a banner waiving Glock fan, I will admit openly that the 2nd Gen & 3rd Gen Glocks were ultra-reliable work horses. While I did expect the 4th gen to have some sort of issue(s) at some point, I did not expect them this early and this often. Thanks for providing us with some all too rare objectivity.
I didn’t expect this many problems this soon either, and as I said I don’t think it’s representative of every single gen4 pistol out there. But it’s indicative of some problem that needs to be addressed, both for future production and the folks who’ve got problematic pistols already.
FWIW, my ideal Glock at this point would be a gen4 frame with a gen3 slide and recoil assembly. Gen 3.5, anyone?
This is why I love independent torture tests! Real “off the shelf” performance. Honest results in real world use. Consumer Reports for firearms. That’s also why I think sub-compacts/pocket pistols should be tortured! If you are going to carry it, it MUST be reliable!
By the way … who won the contest?
John Taylor won with a guess of 53. Email notification will go out on Monday if you’re reading this, John…
Todd,
I understand. I’ve said the same thing before that they should have left the single recoil spring system in the 9mms. I believe the problem is the Austrians wanted one frame and one spring for all of the calibers (9/40/.357 that is).
I’m curious to see what’s up your sleeve next.
Sorry to hear that your Glock is having PMS issues. If you translate Generation 4 Glock in Chinese….you would say Generation “Death” Glock.
Hopefully the rest of the rest runs smoother, otherwise you’ll be spending alot of time on Malfunction drills.
That is too bad. I have been looking around for a G17 Gen 4 with the latest counterbored slide & recoil spring for a while (and not finding any, they don’t seem to be on the shelves yet) because I really like the new grip, but will probably pass for now.
That is really too bad. I really like the Gen 4 grip, but will pass on picking up another one.
FWIW my G19 Gen4 has now gone 2000 rounds with no problems, but Todd’s experience with his G19 Gen 4 has me a little leery. That said, I have not had the perfect record with the Gen 2s and 3s others have had. I had a batch of G19s in the late 90s that had some initial failures to feed, and just when I thought Glock had worked out all the Gen 3 bugs my brand new Gen 3 G17 had a failure to feed. Granted, it was with one of those evil 33 round mags, and it ran 200 rounds of Gold Dot without a bobble, but Glocks and I seem to have a troubled relationship.
And count me in as another vote for a Gen 3.5.
Drew — You’re a perfect example of what I’m talking about. You’ve got a G19/4 that has 2k rounds through it with no problems… I’d trust that gun right now. There’s no way all gen4 9mm pistols have problems. It’s simply that a substantially higher percentage of the gen4 guns are experiencing problems compared to the gen3’s.
If someone has a proven, trusted gen4 9mm Glock, there’s absolutely no reason to start looking at it sideways just because of the results I had today.
Sorry to see the test end so soon. Im not a fan of this brand at all, but was interested just the same.
I know and trust my H&K’s to be extremely durable and
reliable … no reason for me to move away from them.
I am asking here – Are pistols supposed to go through a break in period? If so – how long and what constitutes a proper break in? Are stoppages expected during a break in (if one is recommended)?
I’ll be honest. I don’t own any guns as I get them free where I work and none of them were ever brand new due to the fact that they come from the armourer.
Someone I work with did have a few new pistols and he mentioned that he would not shoot them fast as he was breaking them in. If he did shoot them fast – he would get stoppages (feed issues – G17 gen3? & P226). Could this be part of the problem? Todd shooting slow is not like everyone else – his slow is still at a pretty good clip.
We are getting a new pistol (brand new) and it will have been test fired by the armourer but likely less than a 100 rounds to confirm the sights and function. Just let er rip or perform a break in?
Does this mean the test on this pistol is done for good? Any reason not to attempt to run it up to 2 or 5 thousand rounds and give it a chance?
Last thought and I am not knocking the previous 2 tests – Do you think getting the HK45 straight from the manufacturer knowing that it will be endurance tested – made the manufacturer go over it with a fine tooth comb to make sure everything was perfect? Do you think one off the shelf would have performed as the last one did?
Sig 226DAK 9mm – Allow frame – nice to see in the next test to use of your surplus ammo.
alloy frame – nice to see in the next test to use some of your surplus ammo.
Glad to see some more confirmation of the problems we have seen with 4th gen G17’s…
The more I think about it, it’s really kind of profoundly lame that Glock has been so consistently silent on the high number of Gen4’s that are having problems, they can continue to make and send out new springs all they want and as fast as they can, but it will not change the fact that they have made the unfortunate mistake of releasing product that erodes their reputation, they need to fix it of course, but considering these are issued tools that are called upon to save people’s lives, they need to change their manner and communication tactics, maybe revisit what made them such an iconic brand and powerhouse in the marketplace. The Gen4’s are clearly not a success and the company’s silence is getting hard to ignore, it’s telling that even the companies world-class Glock shooting team isn’t even shooting them, prefering to stick with the “old” model, still, no comments, it’s you, it’s your ammo, perfection remember.
It’s starting to look pretty convincing that the Gen4 Glock’s may be the firearms equvilent of “New Coke” if anyone remembere that debacle…
I would also like to add a request for one of the new all American made SIGs that the so called “purists” seem so intent upon hating.
ChipK, Sevigny usually shoots a G34, and they’re only – very recently – available in Europe in Gen 4 configuration. Interestingly, ALL of the first G34 Gen 4 models had their slides recalled due to “faults found while endurance testing.” They are all being completely replaced with identically serialed parts.
Sevigny most recently won 2nd at the USPSA L-10 Nats with a Gen3 G35. That was October of last year, way before the Gen4 models were available.
So unless there’s something I’m missing, I wouldn’t be so quick to point out their disuse – by Sevigny at least, I have no idea what Randi is running.
Hmm and I thought my guess of 99 was low.
I would take the ammo you’re testing and run 1000-1500 of it through your P30 and see if its not that particular batch of ammo. Its not like ammo companies haven’t had their fair share of issues lately.
Could you post pics of this whole “counter bore” stuff vs what you have? I’ve been eyeballing a Gen 4 17 for awhile now, and will obviously wait, but I’m sure I’m not the only one who is curious as to what you’re talking about exactly. And yes I know I could probably find it on GT or somewhere like that, but it would certainly fit with this discussion.
If I had not won a gen 4 G17 at a raffle I wouldn’t own one.
That said, mine has only had issues with low recoil ammo, such as WWB, when purposefully limp-wristed.
If you want to shoot the living shit out of a gen 4 G17 you can use mine.
Although I would also be curious to see you test a current gen 3 9mm, just to be sure Glock hasn’t managed to dick those up while they were at the gen 4 thing.
FWIW, your pictured malfs all appear to me to be related to extractor bounce.
chuck — I am on the opinion it’s at least partially extractor-related, as well, and said as much to Glock when my G19 problems began.
Todd,
The Gen-4 frame with a gen-3 slide is the 3.75 gen!!
I’ve ran that quite a bit, we did a gen-4 frame with a gen-3, 34 slide.
It ran like a champ!!!! You get the benefit of the new frame and the reliability of the gen-3 in 9mm.
Might want to give that a try if you have a gen-3, 17 laying around.
Prdator is calling the Gen 3-4 combo a Gen 3.75 because we considered the RTFs the Gen 3.5.
I was sorry to read this. It shouldn’t have happen but it seems fate is conspiring against you. In some way though, you did expect the test to be less than boring when you picked the gen4 over the “boring reliability” of the gen3. In a broad sense the gen4 Glocks are hit and miss; there was always a chance of you getting one that would run flawlessly for 100k+ (or not). The thing is, even when Glock fixes the problems with the gen4s, there will still be lemons on the market. I don’t think you testing a gen3 19 would be “boring”.
1st, I’m very impressed by the manner with which you Todd are reporting and handling this. Straightforward and without bias.
I’m a Glock “investor” with 10 of them, all 9mm and four Gen 4’s which all run great – 11.5+K rds without a stoppage. Both of the G17s lack the counterbored slide box and run with the orignal UNMarked RSA, now called a 01. Run with any ammo. Personally, I do not think the problem is simply spring weight but some other tolerance stack issue across a few factors.
For example – one GT member had a Gen 4 that had problems and he wore a solid silver band across the barrel hood in just a couple hundred rounds. I’ve got guns with thousands fired with hardly a scuff there. Glock worked something out for him.
So thanks for trying and observing the Gen 4’s you’ve seen run well.
I shot a rested 1.5″ 25 yd group yesterday with one my 17s – they can be accurate.
A point about gun makers – I don’t recall S&W issuing any recalls or doing a darn thing to clean up early M&Ps with out of date parts that caused problems. I’ve seen guys report as recently as last year receiving out of date parts from S&W customer service. So Glocks free updates of RSAs to anyone to calls does not seem all that out of line vs S&W. I wish both companies great success with their guns (I gave a M&P a 2400 rd test drive last year).
A couple of those ATL class guys are pals of mine and I’m sorry I missed that class myself.
Interestingly enough, according to this thread
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1287557&highlight=serial+number+research
your gun is a December 2010 production build. I thought the slides without the proper recess were limited to the early production guns. Does yours in fact have the 0-2-1 spring or the early, heavier spring?
“I am on the opinion it’s at least partially extractor-related,”
-ToddG-
I have that exact same opinion of the malfunctions my Gen3 RTF2 17 is having.
While not nearly as frequent of an issue as you’re having, my Gen is having stovepipes and the infamous “NYPD malfunction”. It only happens 1:1000 rounds, but that’s unacceptable for a carry gun IMO. especially after my Gen2 and H&K’s are in the 1:10,000+ category.
Perhaps Glock has a bad batch of extractors and or spring loaded bearings?
I can send you my Gen 3 G19 Slide with Heinie Ledge Straight Eights already installed : )
You just have to get your frame back.
I saw many of the same malfs playing around with one of those steel “Glock” race frames.
With a proven reliable G34 upper the gun would immediately start choking when installed on the steel lower.
I recalled my past issues with a 5906 and +P or +P+ ammo, and learned about “extractor bouce” wheil at the S&W 3rd gen armorder course from a VERY experinced S&W factory guy (wish I could recall his name).
On my S&W a not in the parts book part, specifically a beefed up extractor spring with a smaller secondary spring inside of it, cured the issue.
On the steel framed “G34” I installed a spring loaded bearing for a Glock .40 and found the issue went away.
I think Glock has the spring that powers the extractor set a bit weak even though it is to spec for them.
BTW, what recoil spring are you guys running on the 3.75 set-up? Is it a complete gen 3 upper dropped onto a gen 4 lower?
Chuck
Yes gen 3 upper on gen 4 frame.
Todd,
How did you like the Ameriglo I-Dot sights? I was thinking about buying a set for my Gen 3 G19. Right now I have the Sevigny Carry sights on all of my Glocks and I really like the Sevigny Carry sights. Thanks.
Todd if anyone would break a Glock it would be you….J/K.
Sorry to see this happen. I own 4 Glocks and do not recall ever having any problems with the guns. I do have a Gen4 that gave me problems when I first shot it, but determined it was a bad mag that was not feeding properly; got rid of the mag and no issues since.
Chuck — awesome call on the extractor. Made a small change to the gun and it ran 100% (300rd) today. Details to follow…