There were so many comments to the Why I Don’t Recommend SERPA Holsters post that I thought it would be easier to respond to them all at once. In addition, some of the other things I’ve seen and read around the ‘net regarding this incident deserve attention.
First, to all the idiots on various forums and YouTube who think they’re far too smart, skilled, and/or pretty to make a mistake… you’re idiots. And I’m willing to bet you’re not all that pretty, either. The pilots who fly jets for major airlines probably get more training, more realistic training, more peer reviewed training, and more constantly updated training than 99% of the people who think they take firearms training seriously. Yet every year, one or more of those incredibly skilled and experienced pilots wipes out a hundred or more people due to a momentary lapse.
For some stupid reason, ours is just about the only community on Earth that eschews technological safety. For some reason, many in the shooting world consider safety to be a matter of religion rather than logic. And as such, they would rather condemn the heretical who make mistakes rather than consider if perhaps there are better ways to do things, or better equipment, that might lessen the odds of mistakes in the first place. Imagine if one of your friends said something like, “Only sissies wear seatbelts.” Could you possibly take someone like that seriously?
My favorite argument has been: the SERPA design helps teach you to keep your finger straight when you draw. Only a marketing drone could come up with something like that without dying of massive ironic shock in the process. “Our new steering wheel spike teaches you to drive safely and never fall asleep at the wheel!” Here’s a clue, guys: if your new invention is so prone to user error that you start calling it a feature rather than a bug, you’re probably in trouble. Or at least your customers are.
Regarding the it’s a training issue argument, Paul made a more cogent comment than I could: how do you train to avoid something that goes wrong during training? How do you practice not making a mistake during practice? If the price of failure while you are learning is a bullet in the leg then maybe I don’t even want to practice anymore. It’s one thing to use a piece of equipment in a completely wrong way… it’s another to say he was pressing the button with the wrong part of his finger at speed under stress. There’s a reason why all quality modern holsters have covered trigger guards, you know?
All the talk about him switching guns and holsters is a red herring. That gun didn’t go off because of something he’d been doing yesterday or five minutes ago. It went off because the holster required him to press inward toward the trigger guard area of his pistol during the drawstroke. It may not have gone off if his 1911 safety was engaged but he still would have been touching the trigger with enough force to fire it. I honestly don’t care about the 1911 thumb safety part… what if he’d been shooting a Glock? Let’s not blame the 1911 or the 5.11 holster. It’s not like this is the first time someone has popped himself drawing from a SERPA.
Finally, a thought on the whole it’s never happened to me defense mechanism: Experience is what you earn from your mistakes. Wisdom is what you learn from someone else’s.
Train hard & stay safe! ToddG
I noticed in a discussion on M4Carbine.net that Larry Vickers is no longer allowing them in his classes either. Seems to me when every switched-on professional shooter says not to use them and quits allowing people to use them in their classes – it should be considered a clue. I just hope my friends who use them wise up soon…
http://m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=1043371&postcount=112
http://m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=1043371
Nicely written
I’m beginning to believe that things like “Bugger Hook/Bang Switch” are MANTRAS OF DOOM, because they apparently make people stop thinking.
Yes, he put his finger on the trigger before getting the muzzle on target. Understood.
The question is, how and why did he do that?
I am willing to bet that he thought he was maintaining good trigger discipline — every time he checked, there his finger was, laying alongside the barrel, right where it belonged. But like many of us, I bet he didn’t realize what his finger was doing when he wasn’t looking at it.
It’s been pointed out that, due to the rig change earlier in the day, he may have had trouble withdrawing the pistol, and curled his fingers in an automatic response to improve his grip and pull harder.
I’ve mentioned that in a real fight, many people would have their fingers curled into rigid claws from adrenaline, and would be paying attention to their rapist/murderer, not their trigger finger.
Like your point on “how do you train for training problems?”, there is also a question of, “How do you train for things that happen so fast you’re not aware of them?” and “How do you train for situations you hope to God you are never in?”
Those are not impossible problems; I believe they can be trained for. But just yelling “BHBS you idiot!” after incidents like these does not help. We must be specifically trained for these issues, and, especially in cases like the SERPA, we must trained for the specific gear we carry.
Technical details of this particular incident aside, two other responses struck me as dangerous and unworthy:
First, the Cult of Perfection: “Clumsy idiot should never been allowed to have a gun”, or words to that effect, coming from people who are apparently gun owners themselves. Can people not see how that plays into the grabbers’ hands? The idea that only the perfect should be allowed to exercise their right to arms is just about as stupid and self destructive as, pardon me, deliberately drawing with your finger in the trigger guard.
Finally, there’s the “posting that video made us all look like idiots” crowd.
Do a search for “I learned about flying from that.” It’s a regular feature in “Flying” magazine, where pilots tell stories of the stupid mistakes that almost got them killed. Other pilot magazines regularly cover FAA and NTSB investigations. The point is not to fix blame, but to understand the problem by analyzing the whole system, the airplane, the weather, ATC, and of course the pilot. Once the problem is understood, the system can be fixed, even if that just means retraining pilots.
Note that by explaining what went wrong, pilots do not deny their ultimate responsibility for their aircraft. To the contrary, they consider it part of their responsibility to pass on what they learned from the mistake to their fellow pilots.
“I learned about shooting from that” should be a regular feature of gun reporting. Shooters need to learn that nobody’s perfect, that even the well-drilled can get caught out by seemingly stupid mistakes.
And the public needs to learn, by our constant example, that liberty is not safe, though tyranny is far more dangerous; and that rights belong to everyone, even the clumsy.
And, not at all by the way, ToddG, your post is excellent, very much in the aviation tradition of problem analysis. You make it clear that some problems are in the larger system of the community, not just the shooter and his rig.
I am glad I saw the post on the serpa holster. I was considering purchasing one for my glock, but now I have changed my mind.
If it’s suppose to be a training device, it’s a rather steep punishment for failing the prac app portion. Where did you read that from? I mean, keeping the finger straight is needed, but to say it trains you to do such is pretty……zealous.
The bit about the Serpa “training” people to keep their finger on the frame is direct from some of the marketing from BlackHawk. Naturally like any other bit of stupid firearms marketing it’s caught on like Kool-aid at Jonestown. I don’t know why stupid ideas (gross motor skill slide rack! Room clearing with finger-on-trigger is faster!) take hold so readily in the firearms arena, but they spread like VD on a college campus.
If I invented a draw technique that involved putting the muzzle in your mouth and marketed it correctly somewhere somebody would not only adopt it but would vehemently argue why it’s absolutely necessary to tongue-punch the barrel as a part of the draw.
I’m not getting into the various SERPA arguments, because I don’t really care. One thing I am curious about, though. Todd said: “That gun didn’t go off because of something he’d been doing yesterday or five minutes ago. It went off because the holster required him to press inward toward the trigger guard area of his pistol during the drawstroke.”
…and I don’t understand that. I’ve got a SERPA (I don’t use it, but I’ve got one), and operating the release doesn’t make me press toward the trigger guard area. Matter of fact, if I _do_ press toward the trigger guard area, it keeps the release in a locked position. So—is the 1911 holster different than the Glock version? The Glock version has the release up on the frame above the trigger guard. Yes, you have to press inward (and the “press with the finger straight vs tip of the finger” argument I’m staying out of) but if you slide down below the frame toward the trigger guard at all, it won’t release.
So, for the holster I’ve got for my Glock, I’d have to press inward, then lower my finger an obvious amount to curl it into the trigger guard during the draw.
Is the 1911 holster release placed differently? Because people keep saying “pressed toward the trigger guard area” and it isn’t, as least not on the Glock holsters I’ve seen.
I dare the idiots shouting “it’s just a training issue, etc” and/or any of the Serpa fans who really think it’s a truly safe design to start carrying and using them exclusively in the appendix position for a while… see if they’re still shouting that they’re safe as can be and how it’s just a “training issue” after a few of them shoot their d**ks off.
Wow, I think less of you as a trainer. Of course his previous training had something to do with this accident.
Your pilot analogy is very accurate. If you’ve ever taken a pilot examine you’ll know that if the question begins: “Who is responsible ” the answer is always “Pilot in Command”.
SERPAS may not be my favorite holster ever, but they are not inherently unsafe.
And I don’t get your confusion, Thomas. The design of SERPA holsters has your trigger finger busy within millimeters of the trigger. Should something come along and gum up your drawstroke, or even if things proceed as expected, manipulating that switch leaves the trigger finger in motion near the trigger as part of the holster’s design.
In my hard core martial arts days I was taught mastery takes 10,000 reps. I understand that figure is said to be closer to 3000 these days. If in the course of mastering the draw of a pistol from a SERPA holster your finger intercepts the trigger at an inappropriate moment, it is definitely going to impact the learning curve.
One would think actuarial tools should be enough to suggest that introducing a variable in a short time frame during a critical manipulation of a potent machine is a bad idea, particularly as there are other options. Alas the kool-aid drinkers keep trying to explain that the flaw is in fact a feature and claiming any mishap is a user error rather than a foreseeable result of poor design.
Thomas: “Is the 1911 holster release placed differently? Because people keep saying ‘pressed toward the trigger guard area’ and it isn’t, as least not on the Glock holsters I’ve seen.”
No, it’s not placed differently. I have a 1911 SERPA and just dug it out to try it.
The button is on a pivot which is aligned almost exactly with the bottom of the frame, or the top of the trigger guard, whichever is your preference. You have to push the switch side on the side of the pivot away from the trigger, and when you press downwards your finger actually slips downwards and goes even further away from the trigger. If you try to press the switch on the trigger guard side of the pivot, the gun won’t come out. So it seems to work in exactly the same way as the Glock holster you describe – you have to press your trigger finger into the gun and towards the frame, and I suppose marginally closer to the trigger itself, but you can’t actually make the release work if you try to push your finger into the trigger guard or directly towards it. It does require you to press your trigger finger towards the gun, which happens to be the same place the trigger guard is, but you can’t initially aim your finger right at the trigger guard and pull out your gun.
However, what is absolutely undeniable fact is that we have clear, documented, videotaped evidence of someone pressing the release on their SERPA with their trigger finger, and then a fraction of a second later having that same trigger finger inside the trigger guard and discharging the weapon into their leg with it. Now, I’m not saying you’re arguing this – since you haven’t argued it – but no amount of reasoning resembling “that shouldn’t be possible with a SERPA!” can change the undeniable documented fact that apparently it is possible. If the SERPA is designed “to keep your finger straight when you draw”, it is wholly beyond dispute that it catastrophically failed to do that for the gentleman in the video.
Is it all a coincidence? Would he, on that occasion, have curled his finger and shot himself in exactly the same way if he’d been drawing from a different type of holster, and was the pressing of the trigger finger towards the frame merely incidental and unrelated? Let’s face it, we’re never going to know. At the very least, a holster which requires you to press your trigger finger in towards the gun seems intuitively unwise, whether it points it directly at the trigger or not. Less charitably, as Todd said, “it’s not like this is the first time someone has popped himself drawing from a SERPA.” I don’t know how many SERPA accidents like this there have been, but the more of them that rack up, the less feasible it becomes to claim that the gear is not a factor.
I don’t like making decisions based on incomplete evidence, but sometimes incomplete evidence is all you have, and you can’t avoid making a decision to either use or not use a SERPA one way or another. Since it’s unlikely we’ll see them actually banned, then unless you want to take a training class with an instructor who prohibits them, each person is going to have to make their own decision. For me personally, even if it wasn’t for the problems I’ve experienced with the locking mechanism seizing, I’ve seen enough to leave it in the box. Maybe the release mechanism is not a problem after all, but I know for a fact it’s not a problem on any of my other holsters that don’t have it.
Brice, you think less of Todd as a trainer? Seriously?
In case you haven’t noticed, Todd’s not alone regarding his thoughts on the SERPA. As noted above, both Larry Vickers and Gunsite have banned them because they believe they’re “inherently unsafe.” Do you also think less of them?
Me: “You have to push the switch side on the side of the pivot away from the trigger, and when you press downwards your finger actually slips downwards and goes even further away from the trigger.”
I’ve just been playing around with my (empty) SERPA and I noticed something interesting. While what I said above is true for *pressing* the release switch, when the gun starts to come out and your finger starts to come off the switch, that switch has a spring in it which makes it pivot right back up again, and want to shove your trigger finger back down towards the bottom of the gun, and back towards the trigger, just at the point it starts to come out of the holster. It doesn’t push your finger all that hard, and you could overcome it with some pressure easily enough, but as I’ve said, you only have to fail to overcome it once. Just sayin’…
Some of the comments are funny, BRICE. I have seen Serpa holsters have to be cut to get weapons out. I have seen guys uanable to get the weapon out and I most certainly, personally, cannot explain the trigger/finger thing. Everyone has an opinion. I would take a educated guess that most can not say for 100% certainty that they have trained to draw from any holster, much less the Serpa, under extreme stress. I run my guys through stress tests all the time and even the most experienced, myself included, sometimes, have problems clearing a holster(many diferent kinds) when their heartrate is 180 plus. You can train all you want at range speed, static range, paper targets, and will never know how you will perform under stress. But then that is what we train for. To perform as well as possible under stress. Crap happens, opinions fly out the arse from everywhere and all that matters is what do you yourself want for a holster. Personally you couldnt give me a Serpa but then that is my choice. Ah Freedom to choose and freeom to say what you want, even though some don’t really think before they say.
For the record I’m still on the fence with regards to the SERPA. Given the questions surrounding it and the choices available at it’s price point I’m leaning toward the safe side and saying NOT FOR ME. With that said you go into any of the area stores and your choices primarily are, SERPA or UNCLE MIKES. Now while I use the Uncle Mikes for IDPA I would NEVER use it for serious carry purposes. Unless you are Internet savvy your choices can be limited.
With regards to the example of covered trigger guards. In the 1970’s 90% of the trigger guards were open. During the 80’s while we were transitioning to auto’s, people started shooting themselves as they were drawing their weapon, so to prevent this and to keep other objects making their way into the trigger while the gun was holstered quality holsters covered the trigger guards. This just redistributed the ADs to while people were holstering their weapons. We then added placing your thumb on the hammer while holstering to feel if the hammer was coming back because the finger in the trigger made contact with the holster while re-holstering. Problems still occurred because people had their finger on the trigger at inappropriate times.
With regards to adding stress to the situation making finger curl and do all kinds of other not so nice things. That XXX,XXX reps with no problems until you have 1 with an issue is not acceptable. HMMMMM. We could not say the same about AIWB, that under extreme stress your practice habits go out the window and an AD happens. Todd himself says in his treatise on AIWB that if you mess up you’re going to die. That certainly is a greater risk than putting a round thru your thigh muscle.
As I said I’m leaning toward erring on the side of caution and saying no to SERPA and truthfully AIWB as well, for all the reasons enumerated in this ongoing discussion.
Paul wrote:
“No, it’s not placed differently. I have a 1911 SERPA and just dug it out to try it.
The button is on a pivot which is aligned almost exactly with the bottom of the frame, or the top of the trigger guard, whichever is your preference. You have to push the switch side on the side of the pivot away from the trigger, and when you press downwards your finger actually slips downwards and goes even further away from the trigger.”
Okay, that’s what I thought. I would also say that “the bottom of the frame, or the top of the trigger guard” is a little misleading, because on the Glock, at least, the finger pressure is centered on the frame above the trigger guard—which is where people put their fingers in the first place, unless they happen to place them all the way up on the slide. It isn’t the “top of the trigger guard” unless you consider the entire frame the top of the trigger guard.
“but you can’t actually make the release work if you try to push your finger into the trigger guard or directly towards it. It does require you to press your trigger finger towards the gun, which happens to be the same place the trigger guard is”
Only in the meaning that anywhere on the gun is the same place the trigger guard is, true? You just said that if you press toward the trigger guard, the gun won’t come out.
“However, what is absolutely undeniable fact is that we have clear, documented, videotaped evidence of someone pressing the release on their SERPA with their trigger finger, and then a fraction of a second later having that same trigger finger inside the trigger guard and discharging the weapon into their leg with it.”
Very true. I’ll note that in any number of cases, people have done the exact same thing on the draw _without_ it being a SERPA holster, too.
I found it interesting that in the video, you can see his finger is straight when it hits the release. He then curls it into the trigger guard and shoots himself. So, the motion needed to release the retention was different from the motion needed to fire the gun.
Whether or not the fault is in the SERPA, or in his gun handling, I don’t know. I am finding it interesting that while numerous people have shot themselves in the leg upon drawing a pistol using all sorts of holsters, this is the only one I’ve seen where the first response was that it was the holster’s fault.
And also:
“While what I said above is true for *pressing* the release switch, when the gun starts to come out and your finger starts to come off the switch, that switch has a spring in it which makes it pivot right back up again, and want to shove your trigger finger back down towards the bottom of the gun, and back towards the trigger, just at the point it starts to come out of the holster.”
So—you are saying pushing it IN gets your finger closer to the trigger, and also when it gets pushed OUT it gets closer to the trigger? 🙂 Can’t really have it both ways.
To sum up: I don’t know if the holster was at fault. The video is low quality, and you cannot see the finger motion after the initial release. Plenty of people have shot themselves on the draw before, from holsters that had no retention at all. We tell them to keep their finger out of the trigger guard until they are ready to shoot.
If wearing a SERPA, apparently we tell them to get a new holster instead. 🙂
From my personal experience watching a number of shooters use SERPA holsters in USPSA competition (which means they are newbies with not a whole lot of experience) where they are under stress and time constraints, the release of the SERPA causes them to end up with their finger on the frame. But I’ve only seen about 150 people drawing each on multiple stages, which _isn’t_ proof of anything. Neither is watching one guy shoot himself. Neither is a statistically significant number of occurrances.
As a science guy, I’d like to see someone who knows physiology actually analyze the movement necessary.
Buz wrote:
“And I don’t get your confusion, Thomas. The design of SERPA holsters has your trigger finger busy within millimeters of the trigger. Should something come along and gum up your drawstroke, or even if things proceed as expected, manipulating that switch leaves the trigger finger in motion near the trigger as part of the holster’s design.”
Finger busy? Hmm. When I draw from any of my holsters, my hand clamps on the grip, and my trigger finger indexes along the slide.
When I try it with a SERPA, my hand clamps on the grip, and my trigger finger indexes along the slide. In both cases, clamping my hand on the grip presses the index finger along the slide. Manipulating the switch doesn’t really change anything. (Nor does it leave it “in motion near the trigger” any more than my normal index does.)
“If in the course of mastering the draw of a pistol from a SERPA holster your finger intercepts the trigger at an inappropriate moment, it is definitely going to impact the learning curve. ”
That is completely true—for any holster. Again, people have made all sorts of comments about many times this has happened with a SERPA holster—so my question is, how many times IS it? We’ve got lots of different instructors here—how many have been seen? Given the number of SERPA holsters out there, is that a statistically significant percentage higher than other types of holsters? If so, that is telling you something important.
If, on the other hand, a whole bunch of inexperienced newbies have bought SERPAs because they are cheap and thought “oooh, a retention holster–I’ll be cool” and shot themselves, but in no higher percentage than any other set of inexperienced newbies who didn’t know what they were doing, then that tells us something else.
I don’t know what the fault is. I don’t see the physical problem, but then again it doesn’t occur to me that extending my index finger to press it against the slide will somehow make me curl my index finger into the trigger guard below the slide. However, instructors have said they have seen a disproportionate number of NDs with SERPA holsters–so that is important.
So my question is, how many?
Does anybody know of any other NON Serpa holster from the draw self shootings?
Frankly, I do not. I know of a few due to folks jamming the gun back into the holster while the finger is still on the trigger, but none ON THE DRAW from other holsters.
I have seen several Glock Sim gun and airsoft gun NDs in scenario training where Serpa holsters were used, the dynamic being very similar to what happened to Tex; getting excited and in a hurry, trying to get the gun out as fast as possible.
I feel, from years of observation, that this is where the trigger finger issue really pops up, and you have trouble replicating the problem in calm range shooting scenarios.
As noted in the other thread, I also have serious issue with the Serpa outside of this issue due to the multiple Serpa holster mechanical failures I have either seen or personally experienced.
Thomas: “I would also say that ‘the bottom of the frame, or the top of the trigger guard’ is a little misleading, because on the Glock, at least, the finger pressure is centered on the frame above the trigger guard”
Well, I said that’s where the *pivot* is. The push button itself is indeed where you say it is.
Thomas: “Only in the meaning that anywhere on the gun is the same place the trigger guard is, true? You just said that if you press toward the trigger guard, the gun won’t come out…So—you are saying pushing it IN gets your finger closer to the trigger, and also when it gets pushed OUT it gets closer to the trigger? 🙂 Can’t really have it both ways.”
Well, you can when you live in a three-dimensional world. There are two ways you can get closer to the trigger – pushing your finger straight in towards the frame towards the gun, or moving it downwards parallel to the side of the gun towards the guard. The former happens on the press, the latter on the release. The SERPA seems to make you want to do both.
Since you have to press towards the gun to operate the switch, when the switch disengages there’ll likely be some residual pressure which keeps your finger pressing inwards, and if the release then sends your finger downwards towards the guard, then that sounds like a recipe for trouble. *Can* you operate the holster without poking around near the trigger? Sure. *Will* you actually do that, thought? I know I will, since I won’t be using it.
Thomas: “To sum up: I don’t know if the holster was at fault…Neither is a statistically significant number of occurrances…As a science guy, I’d like to see someone who knows physiology actually analyze the movement necessary.”
I’d also like to see this, but we don’t have it yet. I’m quite happy to concede that it’s possible the holster may not be at fault, and that this may ultimately turn out to be all urban myth and scaremongering, but the partial information I have so far is enough for me to err on the side of caution and discount it as an option right now. Anyone else’s call is their call.
Wrong Todd the gun went off because he put his finger on the trigger and pulled it, not because of the holster. Watch the video again as he pulls his finger from the serpa mech it is straight he then bends his finger and places it on the trigger. It’s not the holsters fault it’s called human error. Your answer is illogical it’s like speople”guns kill people,” no people kill people they just choose to use a gun.
You’re missing the point, justin.
Of course he pulled the trigger. The gun didn’t go off by magic and the holster didn’t throttle him, take the gun away from him, and then pull the trigger either. The guy holding the gun pulled the trigger. The guy holding the gun took responsibility. None of that changes the fact that the very nature of the holster’s design lends itself to having such an accident far more than other holsters on the market.
It’s not an all or nothing situation. User error can be induced by poor product design.
These things have ways of resolving themselves.
Eventually, some end user is going to accidentally kill himself, and his family is going to sue Blackhawk! Why? Because a plaintiff’s lawyer is going to Google “SERPA holster unsafe,” and this blog is going to come up. And there’s going to be an expert witness (if not Todd, someone who agrees with Todd) who is going to testify that it’s inherently unsafe.
And that person’s family will win.
You want to know why? Because it’s inherently unsafe. Any device that requires that your finger be near the trigger in a drawstroke is inherently unsafe, in my opinion.
You can buy these rigs in Bass Pro Shops or Academy for next to nothing, just like the Fobus rigs. Inexperienced shooters do not buy professional-grade equipment unless it’s on accident. They buy this crap because it’s cheaper, and they don’t know the difference.
If you want to make a difference, Todd, get together with a guy like Larry Vickers and the people at Gunsite and write a letter to Blackhawk!:
Dear CEO,
Your SERPA is inherently unsafe. We will not permit its use at our training facilities due to numerous accidents and problems witnessed firsthand.
All the Best,
Todd, Larry ….
That way, when someone dies, their lawyer will get a copy of your letter in discovery and be able to say that the company was on constructive notice that the product itself is unsafe.
That’s how you effect change in corporate America.
Look, this is not a fact forum. This is Todd’s opinion. It’s why HE doesn’t recommend SERPA holsters, not “Why SERPA holsters will make you shoot yourself every time”. I have a SERPA and I use it. Do I think Todd is off base? No. Will I stop using it because Todd said so? No. Will I be mindful of what can happen? You bet I will. Make informed decisions…for yourself. Don’t be mindless and do something just because someone else said so. But don’t be arrogant and think you’re above mistakes. This guy made a mistake. Todd thinks it was a mistake exacerbated by the design of the holster. Ok. It’s his opinion and he has a right to it just as we all have a right to see things our own way. Let’s get over this and on to more training…
I agree the design may not be the best.
I don’t respond to a lot of these. But this one is interesting enough to change my behavior, so I will make a few points.
1. I have to assume that Todd, Vickers, and the people at Gunsite witness, study, and evaluate a lot more draw strokes than most of the people posting here.
2. Common sense dictates that moving your trigger finger from left to right during or a split second prior to the draw stroke is going to increase the chances that it inadvertently goes into the trigger guard.
3. If you buy enough ammunition, statistically, you will have the gun go off when you didn’t expect it. More training doesn’t make this less likely, it just gets you closer to the magic number when it happens to you quicker.
4. But you can make choices about your gear, and training that make it more or less likely to happen.
5. There are no absolute answers so all we are talking about are chances and probabilities.
6. Experts CAN be just plain wrong.
7. But only a fool would ignore that much experience without a good reason.
8. IF there is this much controversy, then there is at least a chance that the experts are right. I would say a real probability that they are.
9. What do my two SERPA holsters do for me that another design won’t do, that justifies me taking that chance?
Answer # 9 and then make your own decision.
I still contend that the holster was not the problem, but the person using it was the problem. I watched tex’s other videos using the glock with the Thumb drive holster, and he still pushes his finger into the trigger guard as soon as he clears the holster. He has his finger way outside when he presses the thumb release, but no matter what holster he uses, he puts his finger in the guard as soon as he clears the holster.
For those that don’t grasp the flaw, here’s a simple way to explain how to see it for yourself.
If you press the button with the pad of your finger, your finger will always properly index on the frame.
If you press with your finger tip, your finger will be at a different angle, and will tend to fall towards the trigger as you draw.
In a stress-free environment, it’s easy to always draw the gun correctly. Outside of that environment, mistakes become much more likely.
I actually have a SERPA still for my 1911. It’s not my primary holster anymore, and I’m trying to figure out how to just removed the locking device entirely, because it’s a decent holster otherwise.
In the video he says that he just switched types of holsters. He didn’t mention working on any dry-fire practice before going hot. I doubt he did and because of this, I see this at least partially as a training problem. I ALWAYS dry-fire before going hot at the range even when I don’t switch any gear out.
I use a Serpa holster and when I draw my finger ends up on the frame, not on the trigger. Like many other things out there, maybe the Serpa holster is good for some, not good for others?
He knows what he did…he didn’t blame it on the holster.
Either way, good points on both sides. Shoot safe and use what works for you!
Although I disagree with Todd, I give deference to his experience and opinion. I have personally heard several respected trainers explain why they dislike the SERPA holster. Thinking about their background context, their view makes sense. Teaching people to shoot fast, shoot well, and be safe carries a LARGE responsibility. Whatever they want/need to do to keep people safe during and after training is OK by me.
In my opinion, the proper use of ANY holster comes down to … TRAINING. The -correct- draw stroke is keeps the index finger -straight and flat- along the frame of the weapon. ONLY WHEN THE FIREARM IS POINTED AT THE TARGET WHERE THE SHOOTER IS LOOKING is it appropriate to disengage any safeties and place the finger on the trigger. (The 4th Law of Gun Safety – Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to go “bang”.)
For the SERPA holster, if the proper grip draw stroke is used, the finger will naturally lie on the unlock mechanism and allow a natural, unhindered draw. And, yes, the straightened finger will lie flat along the frame above the trigger guard as the gun clears the holster -just like- every other properly designed holster. I know this because I have been using the SERPA for the last 6yrs in IDPA/USPSA competitions. (No, it doesn’t retard my draw times.) I was trained — NOT SELF TAUGHT … trained — to draw as I have described. And I thank God every day for the invaluable training I have received. Not only do I follow my training, I know WHY I do it the way I do. (Attributes of a good trainer.)
We have all encounter the “ego shooter”. I have never seen so much ego as in shooting (ok … except in soccer). Some idiot buys a gun and thinks he is “Big Bad Jones” and doesn’t take the time to LEARN AND RESPECT the weapon and the damage it can cause. He thinks he knows what he is doing and doesn’t get taught good habits. “America — where you are free to be stupid.” I am very thankful for the humble, ego-less gun-guys I meet. ToddG is one of them.
Tex (video guy) did it to himself. He switched gear without thinking he didn’t need to SLOW DOWN and practice long before going full speed. He went too fast. He didn’t practice. He took the safety off too soon. (Video: With the thumb release holster, he automatically disengages the thumb safety upon drawing.) He put his finger on the trigger too soon. ND’s happen -no matter what holster- is used. (I like Buzz’s and RSA-OTC’s comments.) According to the pros, it has happened most frequently with SERPA holsters. I attribute this to lack of proper training — pushing the button instead of using the natural draw.
Let me tell on myself to prove the point. I switched from a DA/SA pistol to a SAO. I went from strong prep of the trigger on my press-out in the DA trigger to very light prep in the SAO. I practiced a little before participating in an IDPA match. I knew it wasn’t quite enough, but I competed, anyway. On the third stage, I had a ND during the tilt forward after the gun cleared the holster. LUCKILY, the round went into the base of the berm 20ft away. Woke me up! I realized what I did, and SLOWED DOWN the rest of the match, consciously attending to my trigger finger. Thank God no one got hurt.
I think the holster debate is similar to appendix carry debate. Some people are comfortable with it; some are not. I believe ToddG has said it requires practice to be safe. I think he would agree that one must take a realistic view of the responsibility to practice A LOT before attempting it in real life. The arguments are: it’s irresponsible, why make a firearm more dangerous, why should I take so much time to practice when I do use X with little practice, and so on. In my opinion, it all comes down to what dangers we are willing to accept; what risks are acceptable; what responsibilities we are willing to take.
By the way, AIWB carry is not for me. The 2nd Law of Gun Safety – Never point a gun at anything you are not prepared to kill or destroy! “Mr. Happy” stays out of the line of fire! 🙂
GhettoSmack,
Speaking as someone who does NOT and WILL NOT carry AIWB, let me point something out:
AIWB offers certain demonstrable and quantifiable advantages over conventional SS IWB, in return for a greater amount of risk.
The SERPA, OTOH, offers no advantage over other passive or active retention holsters, except that it’s f&*%ing cheap, and therefore popular, and people are going to defend their $24.99 purchase until they’re blue in the face, even if it costs them a femoral artery to do so, because nobody wants to be seen as a ‘tard who bought the wrong holster.
I swear to gawd, the amount of ego people in the shooting community get tied up in the most insignificant pieces of gear is just frickin’ insane.
Amen, Todd.
Two key differences between aiwb carry and SERPA carry:
(1) The increased risk from aiwb occurs during holstering which should not be something done at speed under stress, especially on the practice range. The risk from SERPA occurs when you are drawing the gun which almost by definition will be done at speed and frequently under stress.
(2) More importantly, no one denies that there is an increased danger with AIWB. But, as Tam points out, it provides benefits that many people feel are worth the risk. In contrast, SERPA supporters pretend there is no extra risk with the SERPA and cannot point to anything the SERPA does that other holsters do better and more safely.
Is there any benefit to this design other than price?
If I get rid of mine, what is a good alternative? (Strong side, OWB, reasonably priced for a piece of safety equipment)
I’m a fan of the Safariland ALS system. It’s more expensive but has some quality advantages like “the gun doesn’t get trapped in the holster by pebbles” and “the holster doesn’t rip off your belt when looked at hard,” and of course the relevant “your trigger finger isn’t pushed toward the gun during the drawstroke.”
What I don’t get is people spend large amounts of money on a firearm, ammo and hopefully training. however the one piece of equipment that they’ll use more than the gun itself they don’t want to fork out more than $30 for. Your rig, holster and gun belt (yes, gun belt because it needs to carry weight and is special hence my little special name for it) is something you’ll use everyday all day. The gun and ammo is only working while you shoot. Ironically the only time the holster is not doing it’s work.
So for something that is working 99% of the time people want to spent the least amount of money on. Personally I’m a comp-tac fan. If not I’m lucky enough to know a guy that makes kydex holsters. The quality of his hoslters is on par if not better than comp-tac. The nice thing is he custom makes the holster for you as you want it.
My dislike for Serpa is the same as for any other holster that has some mechanical retention device on it. I’ve had a Fobus lock on me. Lucky for me it didn’t happen when my life was under threat but it could have been. If somebody is attacking me and my holster is disarming me due to some mechanical failure (and all mechanical device will fail at some point and time) I’m not going to be a happy dead guy.
yes, a firearm is mechanical and it can fail at that moment as well. But we plan for the best and setup for success. We, well I know I don’t, try and stack the deck against myself by adding all kinds of extra variables.
I’m a software developer and as in work I apply the KISS principle to my daily carry.
Keep
It
Simple
Stupid
Cause whatever can go wrong probably will.
I know I’m a little late to the party, but I’d like to throw my inexperienced 2 cents in.
1) I applaud Tex for having the guts to share the ND. It teaches responsible gun ownership, including taking responsibility for the ND and sharing it with others in order to make the rest of the gun community aware.
2) As a guy who has recently just bought his first comp-tac holsters, I SPECIFICALLY read as much as I could about holsters on this forum and found that the WORST thing I could choose for my first holster was (drum roll please) a SERPA! So if EXPERIENCED shooters, who have spent countless hours drawing their guns have had/seen problems with the SERPA, wouldn’t I be at the pinnacle of stupidity, if I ignored the FACTS/OPINIONS of those more expert than I and purchased a SERPA??
3) If we, as responsible gun owners, don’t rally behind a guy like Tex and instead bicker amongst ourselves about the user vs the object, then we are sending the anti-gun crowd a clear and solid message: “even gun owners can’t figure out what is more dangerous, the equipment or the user.”
If we are to survive as a community of responsible gun owners, we need to do what Tex did; assess the situation, stop the situation from getting worse and learn from the situation. At NO POINT, did Tex whine or complain about his situation/equipment during the ND. His training kicked in and he took care of the problem and didn’t try to drag the rest of the community down before or after the event.
Let the community learn from this incident, rather than spend our time intellectually sparring over who/what would/wouldn’t have happened if only *insert pie-hole statement here*.
I will admit I purchased a SERPA holster when it was the latest and greatest ‘TactiKoolaid’ thing to do. That, and it was cheaper than the comparable Safariland drop leg I was looking at. I’m a pretty avid shooter, and I’ve taken several firearms training courses over the years as I can afford them. I am also an avid airsofter who tries to implement what I’ve learned in firearms training and the various tactics and techniques to the sport. In both cases, I feel I’ve bettered myself and my technique as I believe both sports can benefit each other. Airsoft is a prime example of when faced with a force on force situation one generally devolves to their highest level of training – albeit without the actual life or death implications present.
So it was during some force on force airsoft training I was doing with a buddy of mine that I was drew my airsoft pistol (a KWA brand DA/SA USP Tactical) with my SERPA drop leg. Well as you can guess where this is going I pretty much shot myself in the leg – something I’ve never done before with the SERPA even though I’d been using them for years now. The shock of this was enough to give me pause and seriously analyze what I might have done wrong. I use this same holster and weapon combination with real firearms as well, so I felt fairly sick to my stomach when I considered the implications had this been an actual live fire situation. Granted getting shot at 345 FPS in the leg is an easy but sobering lesson to learn compared to an actual live bullet.
As a result of this mildly painful lesson, I have determined that I personally will not use a SERPA ever again. I’ve switched all my SERPA’s out and replaced them with Safariland drop legs for my ‘tacticool’ stuff and Milt Sparks VMII IWB holsters for my concealed carry stuff.
I’m not going to argue whether or not the SERPA holster is inherently flawed in design or whether or not it is a solely shooter/training related issue. What I will state is that you can’t train out human imperfection and Mr. Murphy doesn’t care how many draw strokes you’ve done or how many hours and hours of training you’ve done, or how bad a$$ of a shooter you think you are. He will come knocking one way or another and make sure you have a bad day.
Kudos to Tex, ToddG, and everyone participating in this discussion. I think it’s a great one to have.
Years ago a Blade-Tech Stingray was recommended to me and it’s been great. However, the consequences of re-holstering with my finger in the trigger guard nag at me often (and I am glad for that little nagging voice). Thankfully, I have not had an AD.
I would not have foreseen Tex’s mishap. However, hopefully the airing and debating of this can prevent another mishap somewhere, either with a SERPA or with another model.
I’m no expert but would offer that it seems prudent to consider “what if” situations with holsters, firearms, and techniques. The downsides to such considerations seem small.
I’ve been thinking about this last night.
I never did mention that I totally respect Tex for his post. I’m sure, just be the law of averages, that an ND is bound to happen to us all at some point in time. Never have an ND will never be P=1 for any shooter. (WOW, can’t believe I still remember that from Stats. And here I thought it was a useless class back in my student days.)
Anyway my thoughts. The Serpa is a “perfect world” holster. In a perfect world a shooter will always have a trigger finger erection. In a perfect world nobody will ever get a drop on you and you’ll then never have to draw your gun while somebody is on top of you trying to wrestle you down. While some guy is on top of me will my finger release the latch perfectly without me getting my finger in the guard? Will I even be able to manupilate the contraversial latch in that situation? Why is the word “manupiluate” even needed in the holster world? Glock fans LOVE to tell you that in a high stress situation fine motor skills go out the window so flipping a safety off will cost you your life. So why introduce another fine motor skill activity on your holster of all things?(I’m not a hater I own 2 Glocks but I’m not blind to it’s “imperfection”) hmmmm…food for thought.
Like ToddG said earlier. The Serpa has a design flaw. Its design already allows for the incorrect use. It introduces the possibility of getting your trigger finger into the trigger guard. Well more so than another kind of holster.
Which brings me to my second point. It’s called a trigger finger. Meaning it works the trigger. That’s it’s only job. That’s why we have reaction hands and a trigger control hand. Back to my KISS thing again. Hehehe. I’ll be damned if I have a release-the-holster-optionally-trigger-finger. We men know we can only do 1 thing at a time (or so we keep hearing anyway) so my trigger finger should only do that. Pull the trigger. In fact mine has an optional job and that is to not pull the trigger at the wrong time. 😉 So my finger is pretty much tapped out resource wise.
So for the serpa fans. I little bit of info. A good holster should be able to retain your gun without having some mechanical mouse trap. Also when your life is on the line. A simple draw and point is easier than a manipulate a possible ND device, hope it does release your firearm, draw and point. Get it? Got it? Good. 🙂
I have done some training with a guy who was using a SERPA for a SW MP40 and he apparently did the same thing on his draw stroke because when he was doing a fast draw under stress I heard that unmistakable “click” of the trigger breaking as soon as the muzzle cleared the top of the holster. Thank God it was just dry fire, but I will bet my life that if it weren’t he would have a hole in his leg. I will not say whether it was directly related to the holster design or his lack of experience with that holster (just started using it), but I can say it certainly helped me to make the decision to blackball them and I think that he, after changing his underwear, made the same decision. My .02
Good points, all of them.
Like Fox News, I try to take a fair and balanced perspective; honest look. As trainers have noticed — bow to ToddG — it is easier to have a ND with a SERPA. Beginners without training and those switching from another holster find it easy to continue the finger-press of the unlock mechanism and press the trigger as the pistol clears the holster. I don’t blame trainers from banning them from their classes. Better to ban than to risk a shooting.
I just think it takes more practice to use a SERPA safely. With proper practice, a SERPA user can learn the excellent habit of NOT PUTTING THEIR FINGER ON THE TRIGGER TOO EARLY! Takes lots of time, though.
That being said … I don’t use a SERPA as my concealed carry holster. 🙂 IWB holsters are better for concealment, in my mind, which precludes the need for a thumb-activated retention device if one is desired.
A good analogy for the SERPA and shooting is riding a motorcycle. The most dangerous people on motorcycles are newbies (don’t get the proper training and practice) and those changing motorcycles (controls in different places). Anyone who has switched to a BMW would understand … TOTALLY different controls. Or going from motorcycle to scooter. (Many endos ensue.)
My point is for users (motorcycles, shooting) that change something need to slow down, consciously be aware of what he/she has to do to properly manipulate the platform, and practice lots.
Would I recommend a SERPA to my shooting friends? Not without the above caveat. Let them decide if they want to take the risk.
“And as such, they would rather condemn the heretical who make mistakes rather than consider if perhaps there are better ways to do things, or better equipment, that might lessen the odds of mistakes in the first place”
Brilliant observation. Been a pet peeve of mine for about a decade now. Dogmatic recitation of “THE” Rules (as if there is only one set) creates more complacency and sloppiness by eliminating critical thought and intellectual discussion from the range.
All that said, I am fine with the SERPA.
-Rob
The guy should have listened to his previous video on the SERPA:
Meh. The SERPA holsters I’ve seen/handled have been kludgy, low-end pieces of sh*t. Even if they won’t increase the likelihood of my shooting myself I still have absolutely zero desire to own one.
I was present on two separate occasions during IDPA matches near San Antonio, Tx when competitors using SERPA Holsters did exactly the same thing and discharged their pistol–one in the calf, the other in the ankle. One competitor was very experienced, the other a relative novice.
I was the SO in a recent match when another novice was struggling with his SERPA in the same manner and heading for another incident. Needless to say, we required him to slow down and draw carefully.
I am very cautious around SERPA holsters and always warn competitors to be extra careful on with their draw stroke.
A bit late here, don’t know if this isn’t already a dead issue…
If one were to recommend a piece of gear because it made something we want to do easier, that would be generally well-received, no? As in, if one were to recommend a new Trijicon front sight, because it made acquiring the front site quickly slightly easier, no one would have grief.
Why, then, is there so much grief over someone recommending against a piece of gear that makes it easier to do something we don’t want to do, like shoot ourselves in the leg?
Small piece of plastic. That holds a tool. Neither one of which are truly critical to defining the identity of their user. Not following all the sarcasm, caps lock and the like resulting in this simple recommendation.
Oh, and Todd? I can’t believe you would question my prettiness. That hurts.
Misc responses:
TG “how do you train to avoid something that goes wrong during training? How do you practice not making a mistake during practice?”
Simple: in Handgun 101 its called “dry practice” and “dry fire”
“And as such, they would rather condemn the heretical who make mistakes rather than consider if perhaps there are better ways to do things, or better equipment”
I completely agree with this; there is too much fossilized thinking and blaming the victim surrounding command and control type organizations. I’m sure rob p knows what I mean; I think rob makes a lot of sense where other trainers are frankly obsessed with their own bugaboos. And I think severe criticisms of SERPAS are valuable. But if trainers/competition are going to start banning things of higher risk then I think there is a lot more that can be considered besides the SERPA.
On the proposed ban list:
1) All cocked and locked weapons
2) All triggers under 3.0 lbs
3) racing back to the holster [see it uncommented all the time!] and slamming that gun home [someday obstruction = boom].
4) reloaded ammo
5) non jacketed lead projectiles and FMJ (TMJ only) and toxic metal free primers (there is no “safe” exposure; just degrees of damage)
etc, etc
“the very nature of the holster’s design lends itself to having such an accident far more than other holsters on the market.”
The problem is nature of the anecdotal evidence being presented. I would like to see agency data regarding ND; maybe its not the only problematic design or protocol. Frankly I would like to see ToddGs new slide plate dohicky on all Glocks; it would add add a margin of safety on the reholstering process.
I just bought another SERPA holster for my desert eagle 1911. I just LOVE SERPA holsters they are the best. I even shoot competitions with them. The best thing ever.