A few days ago in NJ, a federal law enforcement officer had a widely reported unintended discharge while clearing his Glock for cleaning. It quickly became a topic of discussion on various gun-related forums and Facebook pages and, of course, the gist of most opinions was “100% the shooter’s fault!”
On a certain level, sure. You touch a gun, you’re 100% responsible for what you do with it.
But as I’ve discussed before, more than once, our community takes it only that far. We pretend that people should be — and can be — perfectly safe. 100% of the people 100% of that time? Should be, sure, that would be great. But from a practical standpoint what process or product is ever completely without flaw?
There’s a difference between what an experienced dedicated shooter remembers and what the 99% who shoot & disassemble once a year remember. That’s just a fact. Safety protocols, cardinal rules… you and me, they come second nature after all these years. But the same guy who doesn’t quite get “safe direction” on the range — you know, the one that makes you decide to go home early — is going to be taking his gun apart in a few hours to clean it. And he’s not going to absorb SAFETY through his skin between now and then.
It’s no accident that just about every major gun manufacturer that’s produced a new striker-fired gun since Glock has eliminated the need to pull the trigger on an in-battery pistol as part of the disassembly procedure. They don’t do it because the experts make mistakes. They do it because most of the people handling guns in the real world aren’t expert.
That’s why I’ve always been particularly fond of the SIG approach: the gun must be locked back on an empty magwell to disassemble. Even if you do screw up and try to take apart the gun loaded, it will unload itself as part of the process. And you never have to press the trigger. In fact, even if you try to, once the slide is locked back you cannot engage the trigger mechanism to fire the gun. The trigger is dead.
Manual safeties, magazine disconnects… these are all things that have come to be demonized in our community as if redundancy is a bad word when it comes to firearms safety. The holier-than-thou safety is between the ears wouldn’t be acceptable in any other community. Want the pilot to turn off all the automatic safety gear on the next jetliner flight you take cross country? Want your kids to keep the ABS and traction control turned off on their first car as they learn to drive? Hey, rip all the fire alarms out of your house and just, you know, be careful about fire.
Ever see a $10M/year top athlete blow a play he’s practiced twenty thousand times? Yeah, I have, too. There’s a clue there if you’re willing to accept it.
Train hard & stay safe! ToddG
“The holier-than-thou safety is between the ears wouldn’t be acceptable in any other community.” Well stated and precisely right, Todd
Some good thoughts here. I’ve certainly screwed up a number of times; we are human and humans have failures in judgement for no good reason.
I do really like SIG’s takedown proceedure. It’s not only safer to disassemble a pistol with the slide locked back, it’s *easier*. When teaching someone how to disassemble a pistol (as part of overcoming a bad psychological experience), I started with a SIG because it had the easiest disassembly of any pistol I owned.
“The holier-than-thou safety is between the ears wouldn’t be acceptable in any other community.” — I think this is the best point of the article. The sort of attitude exemplified by notion that safety should *only* be between the ears, is right up there with “if your 13-pound gadget-covered rifle is too heavy, go lift weights!” as an example of overlooking human frailty.
That said, I’m still going to tell students that “safety is between the ears” because no mechanical device is idiot-proof, so we need to lower the total amount of ignorance and complacency.
Redchrome — Don’t get me wrong, I agree with that last point completely. We should never just ACCEPT mistakes or stop encouraging people to take personal responsibility. At the end of the day, as I said, you’re 100% responsible for everything you do when a gun is in your hand or on your body or otherwise under your control.
I’m not trying to make excuses for people who make mistakes. I’m simply acknowledging that people are going to make mistakes and the harder we make it for them to cause injury when they do so, the better.
I got a long term safe for things I am not going to shoot anytime soon. I am religious about clearing every gun that goes in there, mostly because it is crowded in there and I don’t want to be digging through loaded metal. So they are all unloaded.
Until the day one wasn’t. I pulled a rifle, checked it and found a round in the chamber, and the safety was off. Not only that, but the safe is a bit crowded, so it was bumping uglies (triggers) with other guns.
It’s hardly the worst case scenario, because nothing went boom. But until then I had wondered whether I was a bit paranoid for checking a gun after it came from a locked safe, knowing that it went into that safe unloaded. As they say, it’s not paranoid if it’s true. I don’t think I am paranoid anymore.
So I wholly agree with the author here. Even “experts” make mistakes. We’re human and like good cheese, we are full of holes. Layers of process and safety helps us make sure that those holes never line up in a bad way.
Careful, well thought out logic based posts can get you flamed pretty quick if it contradicts a popular mantra. I agree 100% by the way.
M&P’s have a lever to push to drop the sear before you disassemble.
Many complain it’s “too much work” so they just pull the trigger on a hopefully empty gun.
I have never seen it as too much work…just stick your finger into the open breach and push down the lever.
A high tech device (ball point pen) can also be used.
S&W should not have written the manual to say you should use the frame tool which is unnecessary.
being a glock user for close to 20 years now the simple fact of the matter that the ND posted above was human error, plain and simple… we may lament time and time again about how glock is an “unsafe” design because we have to pull the trigger in order to disassemble but the fact of the matter is the gentleman did not clear his weapon, violating both his agencies protocols and the law of common sense.
industry can do what they want with making striker fired guns safer, but also remember glocks have had loaded chamber indicators for a long time, and guns are inherently dangerous anyway UNLESS handled properly…. as some of the instructors I have taken classes with say, there is no rush to reholster a gun… both from a safety stand point and an “end of the fight” standpoint. cleaning your gun is no different, there is no rush and if you have to check the chamber several times to make safe then so be it.
My two first cars had no ABS or traction control and I’m a better driver for it.
Not to counter your point or anything, just saying, yeah, if I had a kid I’d insist they’d learn to drive a real vehicle before driving a computer.
wesley belland — I get that it was human error. But the reason human error is a common term in the English lexicon is because human errors happen commonly.
On the one hand you can hope none of the 5M Glock owners ever makes a human error.
On the other you can design a system that helps reduce the danger if someone does make a human error.
I happen to like lots of airbags and a good seatbelt in my car, too.
“if I had a kid”
Bet you $5 you’d give a different answer if that sentence wasn’t a hypothetical.
You’re making me nervous about moving to Glocks. 😉
Re: M&P’s procedure
I was in the LGS a few days ago and one of the workers showed me how he taught an elderly couple to take down the gun. They couldn’t see or find the little flippy sear deactivation lever so he taught them to just pull the trigger instead! :-O Based on the way he told me he’s proudly demonstrating his new easier method to everyone.
In thinking about it now I’m going to tell the owner (a friend). Can’t imagine he’s OK with that and S&W did it the way they did so you’re forced to start with the slide locked back and mag out. Hate to hear that be argued in a lawsuit.
Your entire post is correct.
Don — I wouldn’t be. You’re not the average “once a year” guy. Can you still make a mistake? Sure. But people have made mistakes with the SIG system I think is superior, too.
Much like holstering aiwb which has inherent risks that some people would never accept, you need to create a ritual and you need to stick to it religiously. I’ve carried used and cleared/cleaned Glocks for years and would never have recommended Glock to you if I thought it was dangerous. You just have a narrower window to work within and so you have to be that much more cautious. Which for a real “gun guy” should never be a burden.
“Much like holstering aiwb . . . ”
Oh, you mean the other thing I’m scared of and will not be doing? 😛
I’m mostly kidding . . . but not about AIWB. Not going there for now. The Glocks don’t actually scare me, but I do expect to have a ritual. I have a safe direction to dry fire at home, so I just have to keep attention on it and not get sloppy.
The other problem with the “just be careful” advice is that being careful and being sloppy are both self-reinforcing habits. People who spend time thinking about what will happen if they screw up are not reassured over time by going without accidents . . . we just kinda wonder if our number is coming up later. People who get sloppy and get away with it have to fight twice as hard against the feeling that maybe it’s not such a big deal after all. Being sloppy once and getting away with it actually tends to make you sloppier the next time. How do you fight that? It puts you behind and forces you to work harder . . . but it gives disincentivizes you to do so.
Eff you, Autocorrect, “disincentivizes” is a word now.
toddg,
“On the other you can design a system that helps reduce the danger if someone does make a human error.”
they did, they added a loaded chamber indicator….
Oddly, my Glock did not come with the loyalty oath in the box, that I had to sign, swearing that I would be a champion for Glock and promote Glock in the best light possible.
Apparently this allows me to criticize aspects of it without Gaston showing up on my front porch to get his gat back.
I like it okay still, even if the takedown procedure is made of boneheaded design flaw.
I have no problem with engineered features which make disassembly of a firearm safer. None. No problem at all. Really, I don’t.
But what about re-assembly and function check? I don’t know how you could do a function check without pulling the trigger on an in-battery gun, Glock or not.
Unless you just don’t function check your gun after maintenance, you’re going to have to pull the trigger.
I know…safe disassembly features at least reduce risk on the front end, but I don’t see getting around a couple of trigger pulls on the back end.
Dave — Agreed and I think you point out the most important distinction. The gun probably starts the disassembly process loaded so needing to unload it and needing to press the trigger become a risk because, obviously, some people aren’t very good at unloading their guns.
A disassembled gun isn’t likely to get loaded before a function check even if the end user is low skill. It would be a much more significant “general negligence” kind of stupidity.
I dry fire practice in my home. I’m not going to tell anyone that pulling a trigger on a gun is inherently bad. I’ve carried and trusted Glocks many times in my life and I’ve certainly taken a lot of them apart for cleaning and inspection. I’d just prefer something that has a little more idiot proofing because sometimes people can be exceptionally talented albeit well-meaning idiots.
Todd…I agree that the disassembly at the beginning is probably the highest risk. I just get a little perplexed by some who seem to take it to the extreme of “trigger pull bad!”
Good stuff!
“being a glock user for close to 20 years now the simple fact of the matter that the ND posted above was human error, plain and simple… we may lament time and time again about how glock is an “unsafe” design because we have to pull the trigger in order to disassemble but the fact of the matter is the gentleman did not clear his weapon, violating both his agencies protocols and the law of common sense.
industry can do what they want with making striker fired guns safer, but also remember glocks have had loaded chamber indicators for a long time, and guns are inherently dangerous anyway UNLESS handled properly…. as some of the instructors I have taken classes with say, there is no rush to reholster a gun… both from a safety stand point and an “end of the fight” standpoint. cleaning your gun is no different, there is no rush and if you have to check the chamber several times to make safe then so be it.”
IMO, wesley belland has it exactly rigth…
The safety in a glock disassembly procedure is 100% in the user’s control. Learn the system, stay attentive, do no stupid things, no bang.
And of course, people that cannot follow these simple steps have no business carrying a gun. As proved by the many owners of S&W MP pistols that simply pull the trigger instead of using the inner lever, nothing is stupid proof…
And of course, people that cannot follow these simple steps have no business carrying a gun.
It always astounds me when people who I’m sure usually vow to fight to their deaths for 2nd Amendment rights casually say that anyone who may be subject to human error shouldn’t be allowed to own a gun.
Todd, I’m paraguayan and live in Paraguay…
As much as I defend the right of the people to own and carry guns, it has its limits. I don’t like stupid/reckless/untrained people/criminals/etc. carrying guns. I reckon it is difficult to say precisely who fits into which category, but you get the general idea.
I realize that human errors do occur, even amongst the “safe” and trained people. But how much of a safety margin is really, truly, needed? Should handguns with no firing pin safety be recalled? What about carbines with no firing pin springs? Older colts SAA revolvers that may be carried with six shots, winchesters lever actions without positive safeties, and such? The CZ75 and many of its clones do not have a decocker, and the browning HP does not have FP nor grip safety. Shouldn’t we just learn to use all guns properly?
Just like someone operating a 1911 should learn its manual of arms and use the thumb safety properly, do not uncock pulling the trigger and thumbing the hammer, do not carry at half cock, etc., someone using a glock should learn its proper operation too, it is not rocket science.
RNasser — I get it and believe me, I am not one to suggest that pistol training is a bad answer. Pistol training is kind of what I’m all about, after all. 😎
But the whole point of this post was that at a certain point, there are some designs which are less dependent on training and more forgiving of mistakes.
Thank you for this. I do get tired of the constant pontificating in the community, which has made of me mostly a lurker. You see, I “missed that play” once, and am missing a finger as a result. My fault? You bet. Cause for lifetime condemnation, as some would have it? Oh, I hope not. The kids I coach have learned, I think, in some measure from my error.