Having recently returned from two weeks on the road of teaching mostly RDS pistol, a few things may be worth sharing. Many of you will already know these things, but maybe the people you deal with do not. Some of these points will deal with the RDS itself, and others with how to use it. In no particular order…
Use a paint pen to make witness marks on your mounting screws. You may want to do this on your windage and elevation as well, though I do not. The best way is to apply the pen to a piece of paper or a bore cleaning patch and then drag a toothpick through the paint. Use the toothpick to then draw a line from the screw head to the RDS body. This will result in a very fine line, which I find ideal.
If you are having trouble finding the dot at speed up close, say one-handed at 3 yards or so, DO NOT use your iron sights to cheat the issue. Under any kind of performance stress at all, your brain will not allow you to use the RDS most of the time, and then immediately switch to irons for certain shots. It just won’t happen unless you have the time to tell yourself that for the next few shots, you need to use your irons. That may work on a qualification course but is completely useless under any kind of pressure. If you teach or use the “iron sight cheat” at close range, you are doing no one any favors. Learn to find your dot at all speeds, distances, and targets.
To learn to find your dot, the old-fashioned press-out is the best way. It needs to be done freestyle (and dry-fire is best), as well as strong and support side only. Start aiming in with a target focus and then retract your gun until you lose the dot. Then press out and find it again. Keep doing this until it is easy to do at speed on small targets. Start very close or further away, but incorporate all distances over time. Once you have that down, then retract the gun further, say to just in front of your chest, where your hands would meet during the draw. Once you can find the dot all the time from there, then bring the gun down to the holster and start from just outside the holster, as if you had just drawn the gun up and out of the holster. Finally, add the complete draw. This will train you to find the dot. The problem most people have is that they can’t slow themselves down enough to learn it correctly.
I have heard that some people think the press-out is not useful for RDS shooting. To each their own, but a proper press-out has allowed me to seamlessly transition from iron sight shooting to RDS shooting, many times over the years. Shooting an RDS well is not a new skill. Doing press-outs precisely and correctly is also not a new skill, but it is a rarely found one. Do the work and reap the rewards.
I can shoot equally well (accuracy-wise) with a dot focus or a target focus but as a general rule, you really want to be target focused with the RDS. This will allow for faster shooting, as well as minimizing vision issues that can make using the dot challenging. A 32 moa circle, like the 509T has, is also a nice reticle to help you focus on the target rather than on the reticle. I look right through the big circle for precision, and can still see the target through the opening at some speed, though obviously not at full speed. I’m not convinced that there is a measurable performance difference for me between the dot and the circle, but the reticle is your visual interface with your gun, and you need one that your brain likes to deal with. No different than when using a scope on a rifle.
When working the slide for malfunctions or anything else, though you can rack off the optic, I much prefer to grasp the slide overhand and cover the top of the optic with my palm. This prevents some stress on the optic, but it also keeps your grubby paws off of the lens. You can shoot through all sorts of visual obstructions, but I prefer not to if I don’t have to. If you are dealing with malfunctions, you are already under a little more stress and behind the curve a little more. Why add to that condition by making your optic harder to see through?
That’s it for this week, maybe we will revisit this topic in a bit.
Glad to see you posting and I’ve enjoyed the content you’re putting out.
The challenge I have with a red-dot is the same I have with keeping both eyes open when shooting with irons – I struggle to see the target with my non-dominant eye while my strong eye is distracted by the sight picture or reticule. My brain seems to want to draw my attention back to the sight/dot instead. To date I’ve done my best shooting by either closing my non-dominant eye during the actual shooting in order to get an acceptable sight picture -or- I cheat during the occasional competition by putting a small amount of tape over my non-dominant lens at just the right location to block that eye when shooting (ala Brian Enos).
I know that retraining my eyes is going to be a requirement here. Any suggestions as to what you do with students who might struggle as I do?
Thanks for asking Eric! Several things going on here, so please correct me if I misunderstood.
1. When shooting irons, you say you cannot focus on the target with one eye and the front sight with the other. The fact that you cannot do this makes you just like the rest of us. I focus on the front sight, and while my dominant eye does most of the work, my other eye is certainly not focusing on the target. Both eyes generally want to do the same thing, though some people have more or less control over their eyes.
2. At least a few world class shooters close an eye when shooting RDS. If you need or want to in order to shoot accurate groups, I say go for it. I closed an eye for years with irons, and though I keep both eyes open with RDS, I often focus on the dot when shooting groups. Seems to work out well.
3. As far as retraining your eyes, they are muscles and so you can affect them to a certain extent. I am a little hesitant to give out advice about shooting without seeing the person shoot and that is especially true of vision issues. However, it can’t hurt to experiment a bit. Try focusing on the dot with your dominant eye and try to let your other eye just relax. Sometimes a “partial squint”, or letting the eye drift off a little can help. In truth all the top accuracy shooters I know, both in action pistol and in tactical shooting, tend to focus on the dot rather than the target. Many also close an eye.
4. How do your eyes work when shooting at speed with the RDS? Is that when you put some tape over your lens or close an eye?
I probably need to drive out to you and hire you for a private lesson instead, but let me see if I can expand on this.
One of the primary advertised advantages of a dot over irons in the context of defensive gun usage is it’s supposed to let you keep your focus on your target(s) the entire time – even while shooting. This in turn means you’re supposed to allow your eyes to remain target-focused while noticing with the strong eye the overlay of the dot on the target. That’s the context in which my questions were asked. I unfortunately have a very difficult time doing this and my brain instead wants to interrupt my focus and move it back to the dot or front sight as soon as it interrupts my strong eye’s line of view on the target. It seems as though my strong eye is that much stronger than the other one and keeping both eyes open leads to fuzzy sights at best.
It seems like you might be suggesting that other shooters have this problem and they just do what I do – they close one eye (even with a dot). If so then I’ll just drive on and rock the one-eyed shooting I’m doing now.
You are correct in that target focus is an often touted advantage of the RDS. You are also correct that other shooters have the same issue you do, and they deal with it as they see fit, usually like you do. I do not believe most people will ever see their RDS in a fight, but it depends on the person and the fight. Are you entering a room looking for a bad guy? Did you get ambushed at close range and are less composed than you might prefer? Those two scenarios allow for a wide range of visual ability, not to mention the individual holding the gun. Many people fail to get hits in fights for several reasons. !. They are too far out for their comfort zone and do not bring the gun to eye level. This happens with carbines as well as pistols. 2. They have no index to fall back on when they can’t or won’t see their sights. 3. They do not have the shooting ability to make good hits at the speed they are going at.
If you possess the calm to do what needs to be done, the type of sight you have on your gun is pretty meaningless in most cases. That may not help your question exactly, but it is true nonetheless. “Target focus” vs. “sight focus” is like 45 vs 9mm. Interesting, but not of any real consequence.
SLG, awesome stuff as always!
Curious to hear more of your thoughts on the press-out with a optic.
I have been thinking about the concept of an elevated muzzle press-out and was going to experiment with it next range session. I have seen some competition shooters say this is less efficient and “slower” but I have also heard Jerry Miculek talk about this when shooting pistol optics. Jerry is the total opposite of slow. He mentions he likes to present with a slightly elevated muzzle over the target and the dot always comes on target at his desired POA. I’ll have to experiment and see if my time/accuracy is better then just the straight index that I do know.
I hypothesize that the press-out might lead to an increase in feedback and placing an accurate shot at the minor expense of time. Kinda like the whole press-out vs index discussion years back. Same thing just different sighting system. Haha
Also on a gear related note, I am curious to hear your thoughts on the performance and accuracy of your LTT p30 RDO compared to your LTT elite RDO?
Thanks EVP!
I do not like a muzzle elevated position, though mine is certainly not flat all the time. I’m not sure what Jerry does, but most of the top shooters I know do not like an elevated dot either. They want the dot to come up from the holster, not down from the sky. Some of that is grip angle and some is technique, but while my glocks want to present high, I level them out faster and the dot presents flatter while coming up. There may be a very slight time difference, IDK, but it is very fast. I consider an A zone to be way too big a target for practical use, so I’m talking about reliably hitting a B8 at 7 yards in the .5 sec range from a compressed ready. My index is definitely doing the lions share of the work, but it was learned through the pressout. To me there is no argument between pressout and index. They compliment each other. Where the pressout takes over is when you cannot achieve a decent index because of angle/position/injury. Then you have to fall back on finding your sights at speed, without the aid of an index. Otherwise, they work together.
Does that help?
It does and thanks for the clarification. You saved me some time and ammo!
I currently present with the muzzle as flat and straight to the target as I can. The dot is always there and sometimes I might need to do a little micro correction for small targets. I try to be as efficient as possible with my movement. With a optic I really like the feedback I get when I dry fire.
What are your thoughts on the performance and accuracy of your LTT p30 RDO and your LTT elite RDO?
Thanks!
The LTT Elite is the nicest 92 ever made. It handles and feels like a custom gun. The trigger is among the best ever. I am just not a 92 guy as much as I am a classic sig or HK guy. The balance is a little off for me on the 92, the decocker is certainly usable but I prefer other positions. The takedown lever needs shaving down for me as well, and it is a fairly heavy gun, though not unreasonable at all.
The LTT P30 is a basic production gun that has been cleaned up a little. Nothing will make an HK trigger pull awesome, but it still works incredibly well for me. The gun is light, balanced, fits my hand and fingers really well and is both easy to shoot and soft shooting. My LTT P30L is among the more accurate guns I have, and can simply produce results I can’t get with other guns in its weight/function/price range.
I’m actually planning on doing some more head to head shooting with the two guns in the near future. For now though, I would say the 92 is the nicer gun by far, the P30L is the higher performer. Bear in mind we are talking about pretty small differences ultimately, and the gun is basically unimportant compared to the shooter.
Fantastic write up as always. I sure wish I lived closer so I could shoot and learn from you!
SLG – I shoot dots and appreciate their benefits. But thanks for dropping some truth bombs about pistol mounted optics. Your comments confirm many of my own suspicions regarding dot focus vs. target focus, and whether most shooters will even see their dot during a lethal force encounter.
On a separate note, I’m really glad you rebooted Pistol-Training and I look forward to more of your writing.
Mark, thank you. I really love dot shooting and can’t see ever going back to irons, but I’m not sure it is fair to pretend that they solve all the shooting problems we face, with or without incoming stress.
Hello again, sir. I’m enjoying and learning from your experiences and comments. One question: is the old TLG post on dry practice still available? I have searched, but can’t locate it.
I’m finding a few minutes weekly help my dot “pickups” and wanted to refresh my memory of Todd’s program.
Good shooting on your part recently-thanks again for your thoughts.
Thanks very much Chris, that means a lot to me coming from you. This one?
https://pistol-training.com/dry-fire-routine/
That is the one chief!
Thank you very much and best of luck at your matches.
Thank you!
A quiet night and I was just reviewing sites. I absolutely agree on the witness marks; would add that they helped once or twice with the tiny screw on the Holosun battery tray. The ACRO, Steiner and C&H “Duty” have big caps that at least for me I could see if they moved. I do put a mark on the crossbar mounting screw. That alerted me once on a loosened screw.
Had the opportunity to give a tutorial on handgun dot shooting this week to a new dot shooter. The pistol had not gotten backup sights and I think that may have made the transition a little easier-less “clutter”. Any carry weapon must have backups, but if one can hold off the iron sight install things might be easier for the student.
SLG, I appreciate all your work here. I’m going to incorporate that .5 press out into training. A good metric to work toward. I’ll also give the cold shot a try next week. That and Dyal’s “Prep Time” exercise can conserve ammo.
(Along with dry practice of course…)
I’m glad you are finding this useful and I appreciate hearing your experience with it as well. JAG says hi.
I have also found that irons can confuse the issue for some shooters, but as you noted, they are still essential on a serious gun.