To all of the in-your-face tough guy Open Carry zealots who held Starbucks rallies such as the one pictured here, thanks.
Thanks for forcing a major, high profile international corporation into choosing between its image and yours.
Thanks for making such complete idiots of yourselves with your “Look Ma, I’ve got a gun and a coffee at the same time!” antics that what had been a nice political win for our side is now a huge media circus about how Starbucks finally said stop bringing guns into our stores.
You can croon about how you’re educating the public all you want, but it’s bullcrap. And here’s a perfect example. Did you convert the average American? No. But you scared enough soccer moms, kids, and coffee jockeys that Starbucks was forced to take action.
It was you that turned Starbucks into a political battleground. It was you that couldn’t just take the victory of Starbucks saying it would abide by local laws rather than ban guns. It was you who had to push the limits and do things utterly unacceptable among almost any normal community in the United States just so you could brag to your equally moronic Facetwit buddies. You did this. You gave the entire Second Amendment movement a huge black eye. You just educated America, all right, you educated them into believing that gun owners are a bunch of retarded monkeys who’ll throw feces the first chance they get if it’s legalized.
Do you know what would happen if you walked into the NRA Headquarter Range carrying a gun like the guys pictured above? You’d be refused entrance because they don’t allow people to walk around like that. Know what would happen if you, a stranger, walked up to my front door carrying a shotgun like this guy:
At a bare minimum you’d have a gun pointed at your face and police sirens closing in at top speed. Worst case scenario, you’d get shot dead. You know why? Because in suburban America, normal people don’t walk around carrying rifles and shotguns. Period.
Go tattoo your forehead or get your eyeballs pierced if you want to be cool & different & edgy. Stop carrying guns or talking about guns or even thinking about guns. Because you’re idiots, and you’re not helping.
(for a less angry, more in-depth intelligent read on the subject, try Sebastian at Shall Not Be Questioned)
Train hard & be smart for once in your God-forsaken life! ToddG
original rifles in front of Starbucks photo from NBC affiliate KXAN
shotgun photo from thenewcivilrightsmovement.com (edited to add: per the shotgun-wielding gentleman in the photo above via practicaltacticalpodcast.com via Tam, that particular Starbucks is in fact in Kuwait circa 2005 … so no harm no foul, buddy, but thanks for giving me a photo to riff off of)
It has begun!
I never knew that Gavrilo Princip carried a 9mm 1911…..until now that is. 😉
Well, Jason Oreck, that’s a splendid question!
How many of y’all hatin’ on these guys are, at the same time, totally supportive of these guys?
I’ll bet that Venn Diagram looks like a *$#% perfect circle. It’s a good thing irony doesn’t actually burn.
And Rosa Parks should’ve just stayed in the back of the bus. This is our RIGHT to keep and bear arms, not a social custom or business policy. Guys like you have rolled over to every step of unconstitutional infringement upon our right to keep and bear arms since the Jim Crow era, to the Sullivan act, NFA 1934, GCA 1968, FOPA 1986, USR 922R in 1989, AWB in 1994 and on and on. All “reasonable’ gun controls, you see, what can it hurt? Fact that they’re ALL clear violations of the second amendment’s absolute verbiage (shall NOT be infringed is as absolute a statement as you will every find in the Constitution) should be the FIRST response to ANY demonstration of our RKBA. It’s called social norming when the left does it (Hegelian dialectic), look into it, it’s how they’ve gotten where they are today, with guys like you sympathizing with them. Grow a pair.
Norm — Please explain how I rolled over on the 1994 AWB in a way you did not.
Until you can answer that question, stay off my lawn.
Well Todd I guess I touched a nerve…you mad bro?
Honestlly I don’t care what the gays do… That’s their (and apparentlly your) issue to deal with…not mine
But you never awnsered my question.
Is the gay rights CCW connection localized to this page or a more widespread connection?
Jason — You definitely demonstrate the maturity and responsibility of your OC movement with these “you’re gay!” type comments.
And your desire to touch my nerves is disturbing.
Todd now don’t try to turn it around and backpeddle…
It was YOUR group that brought up Gay rights in these comments 3 times…. None of MU group even mentioned it untill I just asked if the connection of gay rights and ccw was localized to this page or across the compleate CCW staunch supporter community …..
I never said you were gay, but it was you that brought it up 3 times so……
Funny, several hours later, and NONE of my questions have been answered. Try, try again…
1) Do you OC longguns at work? YES/NO
2) Do you OC longarms in Federally Prohibited locations such as Post Offices? YES/NO
3) Do you OC longarms to job interviews, or to first meetings with business clients? YES/NO
This is a prime example of how everybody in today’s society think they can do anything they want with “No repercussions”, and then when something does happen and its their fault, they try and push the blame to others. Because to themselves its NEVER their fault. I once had a fairly well known and respected Law Enforcement Trainer say, I now know why I left Northern Virginia, because everybody thinks their somebody important. Nobody has any humility.
This is also a good example of what happens when amateur’s get together and have no common sense or are only thinking about themselves, this has doing nothing more but make it harder for the folks doing the real heavy lifting.
Todd thanks for the article. To the folks that disagree, thanks for making it harder for the rest of us
Jason,
You’re supposed to say “No homo!” after touching another guy’s nerve, even if you do say “bro” later in the sentence.
That’s in the Internets Handbook someplace.
So here is the point, Jason, though I fear it will fall on the same tone-deaf ears as everything else.
The gay rights movement, as anyone who actually pays attention to politics knows, started with very outrageous in-your-face public displays. And outside of some small, politically extreme localities it didn’t get them far in terms of achieving the civil rights they felt they were due.
Then they changed their plan. Instead of men in lipstick and speedos marching through main street, they went mainstream. They started to get their message into the media — not as extremists but as victims. They learned that in order to win they had to educate, and they learned that in order to educate they needed to appear sympathetic rather than radical.
Carrying AK47s in a shopping mall isn’t mainstream America. It’s downtown Mogadishu. And it’s not something that most Americans want. The rifle-carrying get togethers at Starbucks were the Gay Pride equivalent of putting on a wig, lipstick, and a dress, marching down the street, and being disgusted that there are people who think it’s sending a bad message.
So you can subtly accuse me of being gay, but I’m pretty explicitly accusing you of being the equivalent of a cross-dresser, I guess.
Joe in PNG
Yes Sometimes
No I don’t want to go to jail
Yes I have… In fact my last job I had them excempt me from the employers no gun policy.
I know how you are trying to ask leading questions and where you are going with it…. And I chose to humor you with awnsers
Understand in TX we do not want to OC long guns everywhere we go. We want the choice to be able to OC handguns… But it is not legal to OC handguns because of a outdated 120yr old law that was inacted to prevent freed slaves from carrying handguns in public.
In the meantime we will be OCin our longguns in a effort to make it very crystal clear that we want The OC bill that got halted this last leg session to go thru. Call it a statewide protest-demonstration-whatever you want…. Bottom line is we want the option to OC handguns and we can’t…. So we will legally OC longguns and normalize the public and LE to OC in the meantime….
I don’t understand the open carry (OC) fuss. Where I live OC is no different than holding a umbrella. No one is bothered and if there was a boob that became afraid of seeing a gun, then that person is looked at as weirdo. The anti open carry comments sound like the anti-gun or fudds that think balk guns are evil.
I have noticed where OC is not allowed and only CCW is lawful, cops act like thugs and the people are generally rude.
Jason — So we will legally OC longguns and normalize the public and LE to OC in the meantime…
Good Lord, man, don’t you get it?
Look at what your “normalization” efforts led to at Starbucks! There is the end state. No matter what you want to tell yourself, no matter how many times you lie to yourself, walking around like you’re in a war zone doesn’t make the people around you feel better or safer.
For the record..
That is the 4th time you have brought up gay rights
And
None of our guys has ever OCd a AK (or any other LG) into a shopping mall that I have seen or heard of ( and I Would of seen it)
So Todd are you gay ? If you don’t mind me asking….. With your orginal post of notifying and whining like a little girl I could see a connection there…… I don’t care either way. how you choose to “pack your heat” is up to you…. pun intended..
Todd… Is OC legal in your state? Handgun or rifle ??
Jason — No, I’m not gay. I hope this frees you from the fascination and wonder it’s caused.
And since you cannot conduct yourself in a polite, on-topic manner, pretend this is Starbucks… as in, you’re no longer welcome here.
(deleted by ToddG… Jason, your inability to respect other people’s rights is showing through… you were told you’re not welcome here)
“I know how you are trying to ask leading questions and where you are going with it…. And I chose to humor you with awnsers”
Jason (and, apparently, the remainder of the OC crowd): it is all too apparent that your logic circuits are busted, but unless your spell checker is busted too please humor us by using it to avoid basic spelling and grammar errors.
If making cogent arguments in a non-offensive manner is beyond you, you can at least avoid offending our sense of aesthetics.
And then comes homophobia. Bring in a racist or two, and you will have completed the stereotype for the gun-lover crowd.
Really, I’m telling you, the larger group will always be judged by its most radical fringe.
Todd wants to put deviant behavior on a them same level with the right from God to protect yourself and family. That is the same kind of tactic used by the mainstream media (CBS,ABC,MSNBC,NBC,ect). The same media that vilified personal responsibility, individual freedom and the guns best designed to protect them.
The guy holding the shot gun is smiling and holding it in safe manor. Why would anyone be afraid?
I would rather stand next him. The guys with pistols at the top of the page. They look intimidating, not a fun place to be with guns.
Dear OC crowd, Why bother to carry a firearm at all when you can simply carry around a recording of a shotgun being racked? Surely this would do just as much to deter a would be criminal as the sight of your XD in a serpa does.
The bottom line for myself, and I believe many here on PT/PF, is that the criminals who scurry away at the first signs of resistance are not the criminals we are most concerned with. The truth is, many violent criminals are far less easily persuaded and those who are can be made aware of the fact that you are not a soft target through means other than the sight of a holstered firearm. So, in my humble opinion, there are far less detractors to CC than there are to OC.
2:01 mark sums up my feelings on self defense up rather succinctly: http://youtu.be/-oqAU5VxFWs?t=2m1s
For the record, I asked about the OC of longarms because I still find it hard to believe that the above folks so adamant about the superiority of an openly carried long arm. Really? That’s the main reason one’s carrying their Bushmaster into Starbucks? Then obviously you must tote a longarm openly during all your daily activities.
Likewise, for the record, I’m a fan of low restrictions, Vermont & Alaska style “Constitutional Carry”. I would happily tote a S&W Model 27 in a nice holster most everywhere I went…
But, one still has to mind their MANNERS. Do I really need to explain that concept?
I tend to just read the blog and do my commenting elsewhere, but sometimes the stupidity is such that it requires a response. Not to pick anyone in particular, but here are a couple of issues that seem to be repetitive:
** You also seem to keep forgetting that to open carry is legal, are you saying we don’t have a right to do something that is legal?**
Just because you can doesn’t mean it is a good idea if you do. Passing gas in a crowded elevator is legal, but stupid. Wearing your pajamas to class is legal but really doesn’t do much except indicate what a goof you are. Not washing, brushing your teeth, or changing your clothes for a month is legal and you have the right to do so, but it really offends most folks.
** I would like to ask of the CHL only guys, how much practical experience do you have with guns? And I don’t mean playing at the range, I mean actually in theater, you know, real world experience in using a gun to save a life or to control a situation.**
I can’t speak for everyone, but since I know some of the folks commenting against OC I will point out you have a pretty good selection of active and former LEOs, soldiers, firearms trainers and so on. FWIW, I’m a LEO with 20+ years experience and a fair number of serious social encounters under my belt and a number of the guys and gals here make me look like a rookie.
For all you folks that are challenging the 2nd Amendment chops of folks here you might want to try to get some facts first. That way when you make some of these silly accusations you might be able to avoid looking like a complete idiot. To those in the know it is comparable to you saying Jeff Cooper didn’t know anything about shooting.
I used to think that the internet was for porn.
I was wrong.
It’s for derp.
When you people get through with your crumbs, can I have the rest cause I didn’t get enough.
ToddG, you have no room to talk since it was your article that started it all and called people idiots.
Yeah, that’s polite. The childishness and cowardice I see here is disgusting.
What I see going on in these comments sounds a lot like talking to the anti gun people and liberals in general. We don’t have to all agree on what’s tactically superior. We should agree that people should be able to carry how we want. In Texas we cannot.
I’ve seen lots of the pics and videos of people OCing and for the most part have conducted themselves properly, yet you want to attack people who want to do things differently. These people for the most part went to Starbucks with their long guns, because Starbucks’ policy was to follow the law and in Texas you can’t open carry a pistol anywhere outside of your own property. They felt they had a place that respected their rights and wanted to patronize them while also out getting awareness to the fact that we can’t OC a handgun.
You do realize that because of these people’s efforts that the land commissioner who actually got CC going in Texas is going to speak at the event at the Alamo in October and is pushing for OC to become legal? The OC people are out there educating and because of it, the politicians who support OC should have an easier time getting it passed. Here in Texas for several sessions we have not got an OC bill to get anywhere, well, we’re done trying it the politicians way. We are going to be proactive.
If people are out OCing and it gets seen and makes the news, it educates that it is legal. Even encounters with the police that are bad helps, because it educates them. Believe it or not there are many that don’t know it is legal. If people get comfortable with seeing the guns then it helps get the bill passed. Will it work on everyone, no of course not, but if you told those types your were CCing, they’d still freak out.
We should all be on the same side and not worried how those against us look at us, cause they want all our guns. Will some that are on the fence go to their side? Sure, but many will also fall on our side.
Our founding fathers didn’t get this country where it is today, by playing nice, they laid it all out on the line. Let’s take a look at the last sentence of the Declaration of Independence.
And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.
They basically said if they wanted something done, they’d have to do it themselves.
I’ve rambled long enough. All I will say is that we should all be on the same side and be able to carry how we want.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cYnT6mjSy84&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DcYnT6mjSy84
“Will some that are on the fence go to their side? Sure, but many will also fall on our side.”
Oh, so this is a hearts & minds thing?
Sir, the vast majority of Americans are not going to take the side of the guy in Starbucks with a rifle slung over his shoulder. The fact that almost everyone at a site by the name of pistol-training.com is siding against you is what we a clue.
*call* a clue
Apologies for the lazy proofreading.
“Apologies for the lazy proofreading.”
Proofreadin’? ‘Pologies? You must be one o’ them CCW sissies.
I’m against the practice for a lot of reasons that has been discussed on various forums, so I won’t further belabor it here. I can only hope that those who are pushing for open carry do not cry a single tear when they start getting banned from privately owned businesses. There are many places in rural areas that will not care. It is part of their culture. However; if legalized, plan on many of the current businesses in Texas that have the “no illegal firearms signs” to change those to “no guns”. This will become the new normal in metropolitan areas. I only hope that you will not be upset with them. Currently, Texas is pretty great about private businesses and many public venues not caring about firearms carry if they are concealed. Plan on this changing for a variety of reasons. It was like I told the folks in California who “educated” the public into not only making OC illegal, but they also created an environment that set many other firearms related laws in the wrong direction. CCW in California did not get better. So, if you choose to show everyone your gun, plan on many of them educating you about private property rights. Please leave with a smile and be happy that they are exercising their rights just like you and show the same level of respect that you want.
Well…I really just wanted to share the article in question. I can’t believe it turned into a rabid ranting by people who can’t understand the logic that is being presented to them.
Around where I live, because of yet another open carry Constitutional Scholar; schools will go into immediate lock-down when a person outside the school is walking around. So OC’ers…how’s the quest to educate the public and change public perception going? Maybe it’s time to gather up and come up with a new plan because all you’re doing is failing and making it worse. Now, what’s that definition of insanity again? http://www.katu.com/news/local/Carrying-a-gun-around-schools-didnt-work-out-quite-as-man-hoped-224634911.html
The Constitution was created to curtail government from infringing upon the rights of the people, which are inherent. The 2nd amendment was created for one reason-to keep at bay or if necessary, put down, a tyrannical government. At present we have a federal gov. pulling out all the stops to curtail our right to bear arms. We have the DHS moving into areas which were in the past, the purview of local law enforcement, this an effort to nationalize the police force. We have the federal gov. arming and training local police, who now look at the citizenry as a population of an occupied country. The NDAA, Patriot Act, NSA, you could probably add more to this list yourself.
Patrick Henry said, “I ask gentlemen, sir, what means this martial array, if its purpose be not to force us to submission?” These forces aren’t being gathered to fight foreign terrorists. They’re being gathered to fight us.
So you say Open Carry is inappropriate. We should have a right but be too ashamed to practice it? When IS it appropriate? In light of the above-mentioned events, now IS the most appropriate time to exercise one’s 2nd amendment rights. NOW is the time to make it publicly known that some Americans will stand against, let’s just say it, tyranny. You can be as dismissive as you like, but that is what we’re up against. We are openly exercising our rights, doing anything less would not have the same power or legitimacy.
When I go on an open carry walk, that is my intent, to show my resolve and to give others hope that they can stand with me. I’ve been on 4 walks thus far. I haven’t witnessed any swagger, no weapons “brandished”, no behavior designed to intimidate. You might be surprised (though you shouldn’t be) at the support we get from businesses and other folks walking or driving around while we’re out. We’re doing a walk in Dallas this Saturday at 10am. Join us.
http://youtu.be/cYnT6mjSy84
Colin lost me in the first sentence with his “coming out of the anti-gun closet” line. Suggesting that Starbucks has been secretly plotting against gun owners is ridiculous especially given their new policy which still falls far, far short of banning guns in their stores and specifically states that the company isn’t taking a public stance on the political issue.
Also, we’re going to count that “out of the closet” as a comment regarding homosexuality so that’s one more in the Open Carry people’s column. Since we’re apparently keeping track.
So Matt, you asked how’s it going with the schools? Actually, it is going great. Here in the state of Texas there are more and more school districts arming their teachers because they know it is the only way to stop a madman with a gun. And yes, some of us involved in the OC movement are the same ones who helped them get it passed so they could.
“Join us.”
None for me, thanks.
You won’t win over any sheep while appearing to be the wolf. It’s as foolhardy of an endeavor as it is to attempt to convince OC supporters to stop scaring said sheep. So it is with that irony laden realization that I bow out of this conversation.
What gets my Serpa in a bind is that I live in a non permissive state (NJ) and when rational gun owners like myself and the many who patronize this site try to argue for gun rights (yes, the same ones you *FIGHT* for), we are thrown your extreme OC bullsh*t in our face.
It’s never the polite CCW professional being thrown in our face, b/c ‘the enemy’ (ergo your neighbor) never knows of or hears of them and therefore never speaks of them in righteous indignation. But, but….they certainly CAN recall at least one rally or one OC ‘incident’ in the news that makes them paint all gun owners with a broad brush. I put incident in quotes, b/c it doesn’t even have to be ‘real’ to the gun crowd, it just needs to ‘seem’ uncomfortable to those not ‘in the know’ to sway neutrals to anti or antis to extreme antis.
I’ll let you guys in on a lil’ secret, YOU don’t represent all gun owners (nor do I/we), but when YOU lack manners, taunt the police, upload your shenanigans and disrespect the rest of the different shapes and sizes of people, you make the rest of us gun owners incapable of making strides in our home states.
For the record, you were GIVEN a right, you can call it God given, but it’s really a man WRITTEN LAW that will allow you to Keep and Bear those Arms.
If Starbucks GAVE, yes GAVE you the right, b/c they OWN their PROPERTY, just like you OWN your PROPERTY, then you should have RESPECTED the right and not abused it, you should have respected the other people on their property as you’d have them RESPECT yours. But no, you couldn’t respect their property nor the other company they kept, so now, you’ve EARNED the RIGHT to BUGGER OFF.
Even still they were NICER than I would be if someone MUZZLED me in my house or wondered around my house like they were about to be attacked by Al Qaeda or the Taliban. All they did was simply ask you to take the shenanigans somewhere else.
However, if you push this one more inch, you will find that Schulz will call for an outright ban and then you’ll have a Schulz to add to your Bloomberg. Then, instead of having a neutral party you can sway, you will have made another enemy.
*slow golf clap* Great work guys, great work! *slow golf clap*
No, john556, you speak that which you don’t know about. People have responded well to the OC of long arms. You come across to me as one that likes just the crumbs given to you. That’s perfectly fine. I do not.
All I can say is I am disappointed you all. I thought gun owners stuck together, but apparently not. I will leave you to your discussion, because in all honesty nothing I say will sway you. It reminds me of talking to leftists. Sad. Good day and bless your hearts.
Donny,
We are in this together, but if you’re not willing to hear what we’re saying and not willing to see that your actions have had negative consequences, then you don’t need to go away mad, you just need to go away and stop picking a fights where respect, manners and logic were doing just fine to improve our position.
RCL, the people in my state have a strong firearms history that has supported open carry, concealed carry and carry for teachers for many, many years. Teachers with a CHL have been allowed by law for years to carry guns in schools where I live. The State I live has a love for guns, coffee, marijuana; supported “gay rights” (very popular on this blog lately) and we are very proud of it. But public opinion is turning away from open carry. Attempts to “educate” the public are instead turning people off to not only open carry, but sadly “guns” in general are being negatively associated. Our legislature has considered the debate on “open carry” and more and more cities are considering disallowing it(which is allowed under state law except for those with a CHL). My observations of OC are – it is going backwards, so while trying to make something better-you are making it worse.
John556,
Counting crows?
You must be one a dem homosexual a-rab lovers. You probably like black people too, and refuse the word of raptor jesus.
herpaderpaderp.
P.S.: Tam made a revelation. The internet was once indeed for porn. We’re in sad times.
Spot on Todd.
OCers are a lot like the dude cavorting through the gay pride parade wearing nothing but a leather jockstrap and a feather boa. You’ll notice that went on for years with no appreciable improvement in gay rights. Gays started getting mainstream when folks realized their brothers, sisters, sons, daughters, etc were gay, and NOT like the freaks parading down the Castro district. Once it started getting mainstreamed, it became acceptable and even fashionable in some cases. Why? Because they went out of their way to show that they’re just like us straight folks in all the ways that matter. They took the mystery and the misinformation out of the debate, and they profited thereby. The method takes time, but over a generation or two, it’s worked a complete 180. 50 years ago you could be locked away in a mental ward for being gay. Now we have openly gay legislators and athletes. That didn’t happen because of the jockstrap-and-feather-boa crowd, it happened because of the folks who made TV shows depicting average joes coming home from work and cracking open a beer just like the rest of us. That’s something the pro-gun folks like us should appreciate and copy.
And in typical Open Carry zealot fashion anyone who disagrees with them is anti-gun or not as “educated” as them.
A rifle has precisely zero place inside a cafe and it doesn’t take two matches rubbed together to figure out way.
And on a side note I’m real curious to one thing as you condemn CCWs as “not real believers in the second amendment. Why is it you were all willing to go to an establishment that had previously been neutral on the issue and yet I’ve never seen any of you trying to enter a court house or a police station that is very much a public place.
Because condemning people who obtain a conceal carry permit as beggers of the state while only going to places that allow open carry is essentially the same thing.
Fuk soccer moms they should be teaching there kids about guns rather than turning them into soccer teacup pussys
“When I go on an open carry walk…”
Boy, that just says it all right there.
You don’t go for a walk while you just happen to be open carrying; no, you go on an Open Carry Walk.
How bout taking your next long open carry walk on a short pier?
Donny,
“No, john556, you speak that which you don’t know about. People have responded well to the OC of long arms.”
I’m sorry, john556 should have been clearer: He meant here on Planet Earth.