I’m a big fan of DA/SA guns and have been for many, many years. While they’re often maligned by today’s generation of Glock-centric shooters (and instructors), there are quite a few things going in favor of the traditional double action gun. Recently, some folks at pistol-forum.com asked me to discuss my thoughts on the subject. Basically, it boils down to these pros & cons.
Pros:
- Safety
- Shootability (with proper training and instruction)
- Great for teaching trigger control
Cons:
- Can be more difficult to learn and master
- Holstering without decocking the pistol first is dangerous
Once shooters get over the stigma and really put some thought and effort into their practice, the DA/SA gun becomes very effective. Detractors always want to talk about that first long, heavy shot but ignore the fact that all the rest will be lighter than most striker-fired or cocked & locked pistols’ triggers.
You can read the entire thing in detail at pistol-forum.com.
Train hard & stay safe! ToddG
Agree completely.
I started off my shooting career with DA/SA pistols, and despite some brief flirtations with 1911’s and a Glock, always find myself coming back to them.
I find the most common complaints about them – heavy DA pull and the SA/SA transition – really become no big deal at all once you get used to it.
A little training with the DA goes a long way. A DA .22 revlover works great in this regard.
I have had SW5906 and CZ SP-01 Shadow with DA/SA triggers and HK P30 V1 and M&P Pro with DAO-sort off triggers (+ SA 2011 and 1911 and hi-power). I’ve used them solely as IPSC tools. It’s is only a mather of training for most people, but not for me with small hands with short fingers. The long reach on the DA triggerpull make me pushing the trigger to left and use excessive force on the trigger pull = less trigger controll. So for me SA or DAO-sort off triggers is the best.
Though I don’t own any, some DA/SA guns are fine, and in particular SIGs. My experience with various HK’s, though, is that many of them have an absolutely horrible double action pull–far heavier than the heaviest (non-Russian) double-action revolver. In my view extremely heavy DA trigger pulls serve no useful purpose and help turn what is otherwise an outstanding firearm into a liability.
Overall, give me a striker-fired pistol (with a safety or a “gadget”).
I’ve found HK DA pulls to be quite shootable, and certainly not absolutely horrible. You may want to check out a VP70z, J-Frame or SIGMA if you think that’s horrible. I always thought the SA is the crappy part of the DA/SA HK system.
Certainly not a liability if you can shoot DA/SA at all. My WHO DA hits are just as accurate as my SHO SA.
Fear Not, the Double Action Shot.
Ernie Langdon wrote this a while back.
I appreciate this post and all of the links. I prefer the DA/SA system for a CCW. And although I get better results in my drills from a striker fired gun, I’ve been making more time to improve my DA/SA shooting.
I’m putting your tips to much practice. Thanks.
I prefer whatever pistol I have. I currently carry a “safe action” style pistol with one trigger pull. Pulling the trigger is the only true way to fire a pistol correctly so if you are carrying a specific pistol because it has “safer” trigger this is just not correct thinking. You carry a firearm that you shoot well. If you place your finger on the trigger then you must intend to fire the weapon. It has been proven in various tests that people that place their finger on the trigger relying on that heavier double action pull to keep them from pulling the trigger have pulled much more than the trigger was designed to fire at. 20-30lbs in the heat of the action. Massad Ayoob wrote a few articles and a chapter in his books on this subject.
I just transitioned back to a Beretta (92A1) after shooting an M&P for several years. I’ve got 1600 rounds through it with lots of dry fire and I still dropped 1 point on the dot torture test today (weak-hand, first shot DA).
It’s also challenging for me to not want to stack the first DA pull beyond 30 yards.
However, I still like the DA/SA Beretta over the M&P with the Apex forward set sear mod. It’s always given me comfort knowing there is a greater safety cushion with the longer first shot. And I just have an affinity for Berettas.
God Bless,
David
No, actually there is a lot more to safety than just what people do when they stress crunch the trigger. Having tactile feedback over a longer period of time before the shot breaks is a benefit… it won’t eliminate every accident, but it will prevent some. Having a heavier trigger pull means twice as much pressure is necessary to have that accident, and while that won’t eliminate all accidents, either, it will prevent some, also.
I used an HK USP SA/DA when I went through the Police Academy. The only person who out shot me was a Marine Corp Sniper that was attending the Academy on Terminal leave from the Corp.
So that first DA trigger pull cant be that bad.
Todd–there is no doubt that a heavy DA trigger will cut down on accidents. But so will a safety (or a “gadget”) and a safety doesn’t cause the missed first shot that it so common to limited-experience shooters.
I’d agree that adequate training can deal with these issues, but in the military, for example, adequate training with pistols is the exception, not the rule.
SteveJ — A manual safety is only useful when it’s on, and most people deactivate it as part of their draw even when they haven’t selected a target. That’s not how I run a manually safety, but it is the norm. As such, you’ve got someone searching or moving or standing their ground with a sub-5# trigger.
Like the Gadget, the manual safety definitely improves safety when holstering.
The “adequate training” argument is sort of unfair. Someone who is inadequately trained is going to suck, period. The idea that our military is made up of people who are in that incredibly narrow band between “cannot hit with a DA shot” and “consistently hit with an SA shot under stress” is just not true.
“A manual safety is only useful when it’s on, and most people deactivate it as part of their draw even when they haven’t selected a target. That’s not how I run a manually safety, but it is the norm.”
To be fair, that’s as much a training issue as is using the decocker on the TDA.
Todd;
I hear what you say, but my guess is that there is no material difference in safe usage between marginally trained people with a pistol with a safety and a DA/SA pistol, in part because of the point Tam raises above.
Moreover, in the military at least, if you are using a pistol you are already in deep, deep trouble and the likelihood of you needing to be able to hit with that first shot is going to be pretty high.
We aren’t dealing with the few (if any) who can’t hit the broad side of a barn with DA but are good SA shots. We are dealing with undertrained kids who have never hit anything with DA and lack any confidence in it, but who can sometimes hit close in with SA. They very well might not hit with SA either–but have a better chance at doing so.
Anyway, I think it’s a wash as to which is more safe, and for undertrained people a DA/SA presents more challenges. That doesn’t mean, of course, that DA/SA is a bad option–it just means that if you are going to issue DA/SA pistols, you really should spend the money to train them properly. (Which the US military, for one, is never going to do).
Interesting that no one else has thrown out decocking a gun that doesn’t have a decocker. When I am training I only do that on my Shadow when it’s time to go back to the holster, or if I am working DA press outs I do it when I break contact with the target. I could flip the safety on, but I run reduced/flush safeties and they are not suitable for quick on/off. So its thumb between the hammer and slide, pull trigger, roll thumb out of the way slowly. I make this a very slow, determined move keeping the muzzle straight downrange. This does add time to drills, but is necessary if you want to run a Shadow or similar gun.
My first pistol when I started my LEO career was a Beretta 92. That was twenty years ago, and since then I have always had a DA/SA gun in the battery (I discovered this website googling articles on getting a faster first DA shot). I’m the only deputy to shoot a perfect qualification, and it’s a little more satisfying because I’ve done it with a variety of actions (TDA, SA, and striker fired).
Although I’ve been consistently Glocking lately, it’s always comforting to know I can pick up anything and shoot it decently (relatively).
“Interesting that no one else has thrown out decocking a gun that doesn’t have a decocker.”
I’ve more or less just stopped doing that.
Which Modern DA/SA pistol doesn’t have a decocker and cannot be carried safely in it’s single action mode?
Man, finally some very detailed and enlightening discussion on the DA/SA topic. This is very good info. Way overdue. Thank you.
But it certainly begs the question of why you are ramping up to test a 1911 (yawn) for the next year instead of a Sig or Beretta.
Wisdom