Over the past couple of weeks, I’ve received a deluge of emails, forum PMs, phone calls, and smoke signals asking what in the world made me decide to shoot a 1911 for the next endurance test. Well, the answer is pretty simple: I didn’t really have faith in the gun’s staying power until now. I mean, anything can last for 100 years. But 101? That’s awesome.
OK, not serious.
There are a few different reasons I wanted to undertake this test.
First and foremost, about 10% of the students who attend a pistol-training.com class are shooting 1911-style pistols. But aside from a few weeks in ’08 when I was shooting a ton of rounds through some FBI-HRT guns down at Quantico, I’ve never really put serious time behind a 1911. I can talk about Berettas, Glocks, HKs, SIGs, and Smiths from extensive experience, whereas I talk about 1911s mostly from an observer’s point of view. That should change. Heck, I’ve learned more about 1911s in the past few weeks — thanks in large part to the advice and assistance of famed gunsmith Jason Burton from Heirloom Precision — than I thought possible.
Second, as anyone who’s read this site knows, I’ve never been part of the Cult of 1911. I’ve seen far too many 1911s of all shapes, sizes, calibers, and price points come through class and FAIL … dramatically. That mirrored my observations from competition, as well. But I’ve also seen guys come through class shooting 1911s without a hiccup. So I have very strongly held beliefs, but are they legitimate?
Finally, it will be fun. Even moreso than the HK P30 test where I had to learn the LEM trigger, shooting a 1911 is going to require me to make a lot of changes to how I shoot. I haven’t used a manually safety in more than a decade. The mag release button is on the “wrong side” and is far enough forward that I’ll need to assess how best to drop mags. The slide release lever, too, is out of normal reach and will require a different approach than what I’ve been doing for almost 20 years.
So no, this test won’t have the same should I buy one? appeal to most readers as previous tests. A semi-custom $2,000 1911 isn’t as likely a purchase for most shooters as a $500 Glock. But it will be interesting to see what the gun can do and whether it has any advantages over the less expensive plastic wonderguns. Maybe I’ll be done with it in a year. Maybe I’ll join the cult. Either way, it will be interesting.
Train hard & stay safe! ToddG
One thing I don’t think has been mentioned in all of this is that aside from your learning the 1911 platform, those of us who shoot and carry 1911s may learn a great deal as well. I look forward to reading about how you adopt your technique to take advantage of the pistol’s positive attributes and deal with the negatives. I’m sure there will be much food for thought coming from this for anyone with an open mind.
Todd –
Personally, I feel that it is practically mandatory to have time behind a 1911. Maybe not a year of using it exclusively like you will be, but its the kind of thing where it is important to be well rounded. It’s like reading the Bible if you live in the Western world… regardless of whether or not you believe in it, it is such a cornerstone of the culture (and in many ways you don’t even know about until you read it), that it’s just really important to have read it. The 1911, regardless of one’s thoughts or experiences on reliability, carry-ability, capacity, ballistics characteristics, etc., is a landmark firearm that has influenced in one way or another just about every pistol since. The Browning locking breech principle is one of them. Less obvious are the ergos. The P30 and HK45 are two examples of pistols that tried their very best to mimic the grip and safety ergos of the 1911, and for good reason; shooters of guns with manual safeties nearly universally praise the safety layout of the 1911, it’s one of the best parts of the design. How many times do we hear vendors pushing a product to replicate the 1911 trigger on a non-1911 gun?
And that’s why I applaud your decision to try this out. Obviously, the “will it run reliably” end of things won’t be as interesting. As you’ve pointed out, if it fails folks will say, “but it’s not in .45” and if it runs folks will say, “it’s a $2,000 custom job”. The mindset, tactics, etc. you learn and write about will be nice. I own a P30S V3, which means that I can run it IDENTICALLY to a 1911 if I choose; right now I’m carrying hammer down off safe, but the strategies and tactics you talk about may tell me that cocked ‘n locked is the way to go (I’ve considered it a number of times).
And I think for you as an instructor, it is important to have the experience, not just because 10% of your students are running 1911’s, but because it exposes you to ideas that you otherwise would not have. For all I know, you’ll come out of this saying, “hey, the 1911 manual of arms was great, but I didn’t like the pistol itself, so I suggest you get a P30S or an HK45 or a SIG or M&P with thumb safety, and run it like a 1911 because I improved 25% with the 1911 compared to an SFA or DA/SA gun”.
J.Ja
I’ve never understood the 1911 kool-aide drinkers, but that said, the only reason to have a 1911 style pistol in anything other than a 45 is for competition.
The reason to have a 1911 is because it IS a .45.
I think this a great choice to run as an endurance test gun for many of Tge reasons you outlined above.
That said, I’m 100% in agreement with Mr. James above that the “it’s not a .45…” chorus will get very loud throughout the test.
I´m only suprized it will be 9mm not .45.
I’m not so interested on whether it runs, so much as how you run it.
I am not a 1911 fan but I am glad you are doing the test, in that calibre. I am very interested in the results.
If that’s the picture of the test gun, it looks really sharp. That said, I am all about the .45 in the 1911 platform. However, custom or not, if it is tweaked to run in peak performance as a 9mm, I think that the results of the test are easily attributable to the .45. I look forward to the test and the results.
Are you taking on bets on how long until you need to pin the grip safety?
If you draw and take a high grip the beavertail acts as a lever. I am interested in hearing if this ever (and I mean EVER) happens to you. Would you chalk that up to user error or a malfunction of the gun?
I’ve already been bugging Todd to pin the grip safety. I predict less than a 200 rounds before it raises its head.
This will be an interesting test that I am very interested in seeing.
I’ve been shooting 1911s for decades, many tens of thousands of rounds, but I just don’t get this test at all despite your explanations. I mean I get it; it’s your website and your money and none of my business what you shoot or write about. No argument from me there. But this is just too far away from reality for me to have any meaning, even as a long-time 1911 fan. Not interested at all and up til now I’ve read every word on this site.
A specially ordered customized gun (in the wrong caliber) just leaves me underwhelmed. I mean it’s right up there with test driving a Saleen Mustang on a closed course track and trying to extrapolate in reverse and say that your results are equally valid for run-of-the-mill production line V-6 Mustangs that you see in the grocery store parking lot. Or something like that. Probably not a great analogy, but the point is that such a test could not be called a Mustang test with a straight face.
Why not at least run a bone stock Series 80 Colt side by side with your barbecue gun? At least for the first 10 or 15 thousand rounds.
Otherwise this is in no way a true 1911 test and your observations of 1911 performance from past classes cannot be interpreted in light of any results you gather here.
Sorry if this sounds bitter. Not meant to be. Again, your site, your money, your choice. I can live with that. But I won’t be following this one.
Todd:
To help your get into this whole 1911 thing, here are some starting points:
1) Never call the designer “Browning” or “John Browning.” It is always “John Moses Browning.”
2) Explain to doubters that “plastic can melt; steel can’t.”
3) Also explain that “if it was good enough for the Marine Corps from Belleau Wood to Afghanistan, it’s good enough for me.”
4) Convince yourself that paying $2,000 for a pistol is utterly reasonable given that it is a 1911, after all.
5) Keep trying the trigger and reset.
6) Stare at that gorgeous photo some. Try the reset again and then stare some more.
Billy –
I think part of the problem is that Todd’s calling this an “endurance test” when really, I think that “proving” anything with regards to endurance isn’t his goal… and because it’s a pricey custom job in 9mm, no one reading it will accept it as proof of anything either, other than proving that a pricey custom job can run 9mm well (if it runs well).
Once you set aside the idea of that this is going to prove anything about the gun one way or the other, it gets a lot more interesting in my opinion. 🙂
J.Ja
I’m excited to read about this test. I think a lot of people are missing the FACT that none of the endurance tests really prove anything other than ONE sample of a batch performed a certain way.
These tests won’t convince those who’ve already made up their minds about a pistol, but for the rest of us it’s good entertainment and food for thought.
If you want to be really well rounded you’ll have to run a wheelgun next.
I vote for a slicked up 3″ model 65
I am looking forward to this test, not so much as a mark about how a 1911 in 9mm runs as far as reliability but more so for the fact of how a “plastic Fantastic” shooter learns to run and operate a 1911 with an economy of motion that someone like myself who was born with a glock in my hand cannot find on the 1911 platform.
I own 8 glocks, 3 1911’s and a variety of other pistols and I keep trying to like the 1911 platform but every time I take it out I note the issues it has rather then the positives, hopefully Todd can show me how he negates the negatives and I hope all of us can learn from somebody who is taking the time.
thank you
I only wish you had picked one in the same price class as the Glocks and M&Ps, that would have been truly interesting.
If this thing performs as well as those, we can only say that yes, a gun that’s twice as expensive can perform as well as one that’s half the price..
Not very convincing. :p I mean, I love the 1911 – its heritage, its looks, its ergonomics. But I don’t think it is competitive on a head-to-head basis. This won’t do anything to change that perception, even if it performs well.
Does it matter what it costs? Who cares what calibre. I have a 2,000 dollar car bought used and have not had a problem in 4yrs with 200,000 miles. I also bought a new Ford truck and it sucks. I have numerous pistols including a Springfield operator 1911 .45 and have run numerous high count classes with no problem. And for those that say the 9mm is ,whatever, run down range and get shot a couple of times and see what you think. Get over it. If you don’t like it run your own test. I look forward to it as I am getting a 1911 9mm as I have a 9mm in every duty gun I have used.
I’m just curious if Todd will come up with some sort of New Gadget for the gun 🙂
Why would you test a 100years old proven design?!
@ Matt,
I think the issue with the 9mm choice is that the 1911 was designed around the .45 caliber. So, basing a judgement of a platform around a “modified” gun would be like taking jeep off road with racing slicks instead of all terrain tires. It would be unreasonable to think “Well this thing sucks out here!”
Interesting to see how much passion there is, on more than one side, when the 1911 is mentioned.
1911 partisans are staking their positions, non-1911 folk are getting some jabs in, hell there are people claiming to like both but you can still see their intense interest.
You would think we are discussing religion or something…
Some folks are missing the point or, rather, trying to find a point that isn’t there. This isn’t intended to be the be-all end-all last word on whether “1911′” as a class of firearm is good or bad. It’s not an evaluation of every 1911 brand, size, caliber, and model in existence. It is not, to borrow another poster’s phrase, an evaluation of the platform. It’s an evaluation of this gun, in this caliber, from this manufacturer.
I appreciate the folks who say they wish it was a .45, but they’re not the ones who have to shoot 50k through the gun in a year. I’ve done that (HK45) and it beat up my fingers, wrists, and elbows enough that I swore I wouldn’t do it again. I don’t see how that should prevent me from ever using a 1911.
I appreciate the folks who say they wish it was a $500 gun, but they’re not the ones who commit to carrying this thing every day for a year. This gun is the bare minimum I considered for that purpose. Even with that, pistol-forum.com is awash with people warning me that the gun won’t run reliably. So from that standpoint, yes, it will be interesting to see if the $2,000 semi-custom gun can run as well as the $5-900 Smiths, Glocks, and HKs I’ve used in previous tests.
Hope this clears some things up. Every year there are folks who express disappointment with the gun chosen for the test, and certainly that is understandable. For everyone else, though, I hope it will be an interesting and informative year.
This is funny. The 1911 “elite” are poo-pooing the test because it’s not “a valid test of the gun”. Then the “plastic-fantastic” crowd is saying it’s not a valid test because the the pistol isn’t in the same price range. Oh, brother.
As Todd said, this isn’t really an endurance test or to prove the pistol is reliable for XXX rounds without breakage. This is Todd learning something new to be a better trainer and for personal advancement.
I really look forward to the updates! I’m curious to see Todd’s experience and open-minded evaluation of the lessons learned.
By the way, 9mm 1911 is LIKE BUTTER! If you can get it to run reliably you WILL get spoiled! My wife had bad tendinitis in her elbow from shooting a popular plastic pistol. She switched to 9mm 1911 and it went away!
I am pretty excited about this. I view it in the same light as I view top gear testing a ferrari Enzo. I’ll never drive one, but they are awesome. It will be interesting to see how the gun runs in the hands of our tame professional shooter.
Todd,
I have an ambidextrous magazine release for a 1911 that somebody gave me 20 or 30 years ago. You can have it if you want it. 🙂
Bill
I am excited about this test gun. I am a long time 1911 fan who also understands some of the shortcomings of the 1911. My interest in this test is not how many rounds will this particular gun go before it stops (but I am curious about that)but rather because of Todd’s skill level and analytical mind. Having him shoot the gun long term and finding the most efficient ways to run it.
I figure whether the gun runs well or not and whether Todd likes the gun or not we will all still learn something.
Can you post some picture now the Glock is done?
I’d love to see how the high wear areas did hold up…
Bill — Something tells me there’s a reason the ambi 1911 mag catch never took off…
Sebastian — There will be continuing Glock updates until the 1911s are in my hands and ready for everyday carry, which probably won’t be for a month or more.
I own a Glock 26 9MM a M&P9c (everyday IWB Carry), and a SIG P229 Elite on 9mm also, A 1911 is the next one on my wish list, so its learning time from El Maestro Todd. Good luck with the test! always a fan. Todd just to remember… your best time in the FAST test is with what gun?
I wonder how the 1911 is gonna response to the FAST…time will tell… buena suerte!
I sincerely doubt I’m going to revolutionize anything about the way people run 1911s considering the tremendous amount of testing, assessing, and development that’s gone into them over the past half a century from IPSC to IDPA to Delta to HRT etc. etc.
While the trigger might be (in theory) more shootable than previous guns I’ve used, the reload procedure is going to be more complicated and quite possibly more time consuming. At least for the F.A.S.T. where the reload is such a critical part of the drill it’s very doubtful in my mind that I’ll set a personal best using this gun. But only time will tell.
I would really like to see some video of Todd Dual weilding those 1911’s like Nicholas Cage in Face-Off!…. Even if they are 9mm…
J/K
I think the 2012 test is going to be very interesting, and I will be following along for the ride!
A test of “this gun in this caliber from this manufacturer” as you put it takes this website entirely out of the realm of being a sort of broadbased Consumer Reports for Firearms, as many of us have long viewed it, where your testing held widespread applicability to entire classes of firearms and classes of shooters, and puts it instead squarely in the category of social media, where the rest of us are mere observers, voyeurs in some cases, of your own private pleasures; pleasures that are surely entertaining to you and a few faithful, but almost entirely irrelevant to the vast majority of shooters who will never own (or even consider owning) such an esoteric firearm.
So, thanks, but no thanks. Best wishes for a successful test. It’s been a pleasure and I appreciate your work. Catch up with you again in 2014 or so.
Billy — See here for the Consumer Reports preview of the 2013 Porsche 911 Cabriolet… $93,700.
I certainly do understand if the gun, either due to its type or caliber or price, is not of interest to a particular person. But because I see plenty of people in classes, matches, etc. who do use this type, caliber, and/or price point of pistol I’m pretty sure it won’t be quite the same as doing a year long test drive of a Buggati Veyron. Though here’s an Edmunds Review of the Bugatti Veyron. 8)
You’re carrying this weapon exclusively? And I do read correctly that you’re, let’s say, “rusty” with the platform, yes?
I recall a rant concerning “carry gun rotation” (which I will note that I didn’t necessarily disagree with). As you said in one of the Rotation articles, “Carrying a gun is not about personal enjoyment, it is about personal safety. If your weapon selection is based on something other than objective factors like concealability, reliability, and shootability then you’re doing it wrong.”
For the record, I’m not trying be a jerk at all. I very much look forward to seeing how this pistol run. I’m just genuinely curious. I guess what I’m really wondering is how you reconcile this. On the surface it does appear that you will be trusting your life to a weapon you are less than ideally proficient with, no?
T. — That’s a reasonable and very relevant question.
Planning a committed change to a new system once a year isn’t the same as casually picking from amongst a handful of dissimilar guns each day. While there will certainly be a period of time during which I’m not as proficient with the new gun as I was with the last, I’m not just randomly choosing which gun to carry on Tuesday as opposed to Wednesday.
I won’t start carrying the 1911 until two things have happened: first, the gun has proven to me that it is reliable enough to depend upon; and second, I’ve become familiar enough with it that I feel confident I can shoot it well under stress. Those two requirements are generally met simultaneously after about 1,000 rounds of ammo through the test gun. In addition, given just how much different the 1911 is from the guns I’m used to (manual safety, mag release on the opposite side, slide release not reachable by my right thumb) I expect to do a ridiculous amount of dry fire during the first few days I have the gun. Until I feel like I’m operating the controls at a preconscious level, I won’t switch.
Once I switch to the 1911, barring some substantial problem like the one I had with the G17 early on, I won’t switch back until it’s time to begin another test.
I see that as substantially different than practicing with a bunch of different guns a little bit each time I’m at the range and then carrying each of them on different days as whim takes me.
He’s giving a gun a fair shake. As a professional, it’s a wise decision for a gun that influenced a lot of the features we see on guns today.
Rather than giving generalities he can give insights. I was certain he was going to go with the FN Striker fired pistol, Certain. I said so, but I was wrong.
He’s trying something different, I think he’s wrong though, honestly, I mean I understand in the theory of testing you can say, this is an example of one. But in reality, you could say the same about all of the tests that have ever been conducted and say that they were null and void, that nothing could be deduced.
Personally, I’m fascinated with the tests, always have been. He’s putting his money where his mouth is, and investing what? $2k per pistol, let’s say $400-500 in carry gear, probably the same or more in equipment to maintain the gun, spending what… $10,000-ish on bullets for the test to give us this information for free?
Sure it’s a business expense, and he’d have to be shooting something, but… I value that, he did exactly what I would’ve never believed he would’ve done.
I don’t agree with him that he won’t be evaluating the platform, he’ll have to get used to a single stack magazine, he’ll have to get used to the magazine release, the manual of arms, the do’s and dont’s of 1911’s. Sure it doesn’t have .45 ACP recoil, but, all in all it’s a Government size 1911 in 9mm with everything that I would want.
He’s running the modern 1911, IMHO. I can’t blame him for shooting 9mm either.
I mean, honestly, I put Todd in a box and said he’d be shooting another double stack, polymer gun. I was pleasantly surprised.
Dude, enjoy the test, I look forward to it.
Not going to lie, I do have one gripe with you. I think you need to do more than monthly updates on the pistol-test with the 1911, I think as you’re cutting your teeth on the platform, the things you observe in a weekly maybe even bi-weekly, are what we come here for.
I can understand monthly with the Glock, we’re pretty much through the thick of the test, just finishing it out now.
Thanks for all you do and contribute to us,
God Bless,
Brandon.
Thanks, Brandon! The plan is to do weekly updates just as I have with all the guns. I only switched to the monthly format with the Glock because the test went past a year and the amount of actual shooting I was getting to do dropped to the point where weekly updates amounted to nothing but “didn’t shoot this week but the gun is still black.”
Tood, I have a $516 Rock Island that I would put up next to any Glock. Laugh as you may, but being a long time 1911 man I feel that the Rock’s are one of the best kept secrets. Owning 27 different 1911’s from a $2800 Les Baer,Wilson’s, STI’s and several Colt’s. I also have 7 Rock Islands that have run flawless. +20,000 rounds down the pipe on one of my Rock’s with only a spring change. Many guys at the pin shoots and at the gun club stop me wondering what I’m shooting? Grab a 1911 in 9mm from Rock Island and lets see your endurance test on one of those.
Bravo. I think ToddG made a brilliant decision for this year long test. Having carried .45 ACP 1911’s for 25 years, I already know they can work when properly set-up. On the other hand, I have yet to see a fully reliable 1911 in 9 mm–I truly hope that SA has cracked the code on this. In addition, given the numerous 1911’s that are still relied upon by many individuals, it will be interesting to see how Todd approaches the retro-pistol and what adaptations he requires to optimize its use as compared to the Glock, HK’s, M&P, Sig, and Beretta’s he has previously shot. For those individuals whining about the greater cost of the 1911 compared to a modern polymer service pistol, you are off base; most of the major organizations that have issued 1911’s in the past decade or so have typically used 1911’s valued in the $2000-3000 range–it is simply what a duty ready 1911 now costs.
Thanks, DocGKR!
I think the biggest value in the new evaluation is following a non-1911 person through the experience of OBJECTIVELY learning and advancing with a 1911. I can’t wait!
Prediction: FAST Drill will be slow at first, but once proficient with the platform, FAST times will be at or better than Todd’s personal best. Reloads may be the slowest for proficiency. But with the low muzzle flip of a 9mm 1911, split times will be QUICK.
I think that Todd made a great decision on the selection of the new test gun.
The price of ammo, recoil factors plus all of the bells and whistles you can add to a 1911 platform made this weapon a wonderful choice.
Let the test begin!!!
If you want to test a 1911, then it really should be in 10mm, .40S&W or ideally .45ACP
9mm just isn’t its forté & if real metal handguns are required in that caliber, I suggest either the Hi-Power or CZ75/85…..
….posted only partly tongue in cheek;-)
Get a .45 1911!
I showed this post to my wife because she uses a 9mm 1911 for IDPA matches and she said “Hey, that looks like my old Taurus PT1911!”.
Just thought you would want to know your $2k (assuming) custom 1911 looks like a Taurus 🙂
todd,
i’m interested in seeing how your journey into “m1911 land” will work out. i’ve been carrying a g.i. m1911a1 .45 for many years, my daughter has been carrying an m1911a1 9mm, conversion from .38 super since just before she turned 21, (she’s 41 now) and she’s happy with her gun, its not a $2,000 custom job, nor is my .45, but they do the job.
Why 1911?
Because racegun!
“Because racegun!”
Nuh-uh! It’s totally practical and … um… OK, yeah.
😀
I think it was the review of the Pro in S.W.A.T. Magazine that remarked that the FTU had figured out how to get a pretty sweet CDP gun on the taxpayer’s dime.