Part of the email I send to students just prior to each class:
All else being equal, I’d prefer students NOT use SERPA holsters. You won’t get kicked out if you’ve got one, but I will take some time to explain why I recommend against them from both a safety and security standpoint.
Tex Grebner recently had an experience that demonstrates my reasoning behind this. To his tremendous credit, he posted the details and even a video of the accident on his YouTube page. The video has some strong language and shows the result of the accident and as such may not be appropriate for young or squeamish viewers:
Mr. Grebner specifically says that he doesn’t blame the gear, and that is commendable. Nonetheless, the SERPA retention mechanism certainly lends itself to such accidents more than most other holsters. Instead of keeping your trigger finger well clear of the gun during the initial part of the drawstroke, the SERPA and its clones require you to press your trigger finger toward the trigger as you draw.
Best wishes for a speedy and completely recovery go out to Mr. Grebner along with a sincere thank-you for sharing this very serious experience with the world.
Train hard & stay safe! ToddG
(and thanks to orionz06 for posting the video on pistol-forum)
Thank you for saying this. The more people warn against these things, the better.
Another concern with these holsters is that if the mechanism gets dirt or pebbles in it, it jams, and you can’t draw. Your options are then reduced to removing your holster from your belt and throwing your gun at whatever it is you’d rather be shooting at.
Very kind of him to not blame the gear, and I suppose he is mostly correct in his assessment. The idea, the concept of having a retention device that is disengaged as part of the natural draw stroke makes sense. But in the SERPA design, it still comes up wanting. I am not a big fan of small springs and pins that like to get dust, dirt, mud, and even sticks and twigs stuck in the mechanism that while they will not likely cause an AD/ND, can render the holster useless by not allowing the pistol out of the holster.
For those who carry a pistol as a secondary system, if you need to get it out, I would argue that you probably need to get it out and into action in the worst way. Realizing at that “moment of truth” that you cannot get the pistol out and into the fight is not a pleasant experience for those guys who have been unfortunate enough to experience it.
Respect, for not blaming the gear!
I´ve eye witnessed a similar ND a couple of years ago. The overall outcome was a bit more serious. It was just like a “deja vu”, watching this.
I gotta give that guy credit because he didn’t blame the holster or the gun and he had the balls to post a video knowing that the internet arm chair commandos might ridicule him.
Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn’t that a 511 thumb lock type holster?
5.11 is what he was training with earlier in the day; Tex says stabbing his thumb down to release that retention mechanism had his thumb in place to sweep the safety off of his 1911 when he drew from the SERPA. What follows is why striker fired guns and SERPAs shouldn’t mix: you’re waggling around the same digit that fires the gun as that releases the retention mechanism, making foulups a matter of millimeters.
I watched the video again. You are correct…it was a SERPA. I have always heard that SERPA+Glock=ND. Now we have a new one with a 1911. Interesting.
That’s how easy it is for a careful and experienced shooter to cap themselves. It only takes once. A sobering reminder for us all.
You are one stand up guy Tex. And pretty BA to keep your shit tight after taking that hit too. Well done.
sobering and well done to Tex.
Another reason to always have a GSW kit in your range bag.
Very sobering… and yet the huour is still there, captain obvious… “I just shot myself” 🙂
Pretty impressive. I think I heard him reengage the safety right after shooting himself, and before putting the gun on the deck.
I don’t think the SERPA is a good design, but beyond that, this also shows the importance of sticking with one holster and not jumping around.
My guess is that MANY people will be arguing with me… I’ve done thousands of draw drills with this holster, and I NEVER touched my trigger… Our unlucky friend did a serious mistake: unholster first, THEN put your safety OFF… My opinion? BH SERPA hosters are among the best, but you need to practice, practice and practice… Just for the record, I’ve used this holster for three years, with my HK45, and never had “issues” –even after a previous “bad” night out, with drinks etc… If you keep a straight line, when drawing, your finger stays on the pistol frame, not the trigger!!! Sometimes it’s not a matter of how much you train, it’s a matter of how much you train properly!!! My best wishes to my friend… Man, you were lucky!!!!
…Sorry for my English,they are getting rusty… 🙂
VASSILIS — I think that misses the point on two levels.
First, not everyone has a safety lever on his pistol. Drawing a Glock with a ~5# trigger isn’t much different than drawing a 1911 with the safety disengaged.
Second and more importantly, any piece of gear is safe if you run it perfectly every time. The question isn’t whether it’s possible to draw safely with the SERPA. The question is whether the SERPA is more prone to these kinds of accidents. Given that this is just one of many similar incidents, I’d say the jury is in and the verdict is “guilty.”
There’s just nothing the SERPA does that other safer, more durable and reliable holsters can’t do better.
You’re supposed to draw the serpa with your finger strsight using the pad of your finger to disengage the mechanism. The only people that ever have this problem are the ones that curl their finger and disengage the mechanism with their finger tip. My finger has never come even close to the trigger guard on my draw stroke. It’s straight and stiff along the frame every time.
Norman…Throw in an adrenaline dump in a heat of the moment situation and your finger will likely slam that release pretty hard… thus finding its way down to the trigger prematurely.
I think the video makes another good point…train with the same platform in both your holsters and weapon choice consistently.
Dan hit the nail on the head: train with the same platform in both your holsters and weapon choice consistenly. Each type of holster has its pros and cons, but when you start mixing things up, stuff like this happens. I started out my law enforcement career with a 1911, changed agencies a year later, and switched to a Glock. Despite only carrying a 1911 for one year and a Glock for 10, and putting 10x as many rounds and drawstrokes with the Glock, my thumb still goes up to disengage the imaginary thumb safety every time I draw. I’ve also noticed a similar thing with people who transition from Sigs to Glocks when they try to decock the Glock. Muscle memory does strange things.
Bravo for bringing this up and making a stand. I’ve pointed out the problems with Serpas in the past only to be pounced on and maligned. Claiming it’s merely a ‘training issue’ is like a local intersection (cited as the most dangerous in our area) where two people were killed turning on a yellow light. Yes, they failed to yield, but the fact that there are countless accidents every month there with a number of people who were very experienced indicates that training isn’t sufficient, the design of the intersection is poor. I feel the same way about the retention on the Serpas (and now need to take a look at the 5.11 thumb drive as well…never considered that motion deactivating the safety).
Just to be clear, he practiced with the 5.11 but the ND happened with the SERPA?
+1 on Dan’s point, Consistency is key. Most of us will utilise multiple systems of both weapon and holster…it’s nice to be able to change favorite flavours every now and again. But switching up mid-session with fundamentally different rigs is just asking for dissaster.
As for the Serpa in general, I’ve used both level 2 and 3 for a few years now (generally running glock) and have never had any issues with it. As was stated, muscle memory is a funny creature and kicks in even during the adrenaline dump/loss of fine motor/etc. If you’re swiping your finger to release, you’ll do it even under stress which will allow your finger to flow onto the frame. If you’re ‘pushing’ the button though….
Let the flaming begin 🙂
glad he was ok though, it’s a brutal reminder that ND’s can ruin even a seasoned shooters day. Speedy recovery
HMMMM!!!, Always thought of the SERPA as a purely recreational holster cheap as it is. NEVER considered it as a duty or carry rig holster. I am a Safariland Snob and insist on carry rigs from that manufacturer no matter the cost.
Previously I have been ambivalent on the whole finger making it’s way into the trigger guard argument. Felt that it was a training issue that upon release the finger goes straight and doesn’t cheat it’s way into the trigger guard until the gun is at least level with the intended target. I can see arguments both ways.
In watching the video it doesn’t even look like he may have got his finger totally in the trigger guard when the muzzle flash appears. Would love to see a better resolution copy and slowwww it wayyy down. Also would love to see video of his draws with the 5.11 holster. Was he cheating his finger onto the trigger with that one as well? He may have been getting away with it with the Glock if there was more take-up in the trigger compared to his more sensitive 1911.
I also ECHO those who posted regarding consistency of your equipment. All my holsters are carried in the same place and if they have retention they use the same type for all my holsters whether they are for auto’s or revolvers.
Tex gets all the credit for having the intestinal fortitude to put forward the video and not taking the easy way out of keeping it quiet or blaming the equipment.
Dear Todd, I can understand your concern about SERPA holsters, but we all have to go back to the basics: 1. All guns are always loaded.
2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.
Now, you’ve mentioned Glocks with “custom” triggers… Well, Glocks do not have a normal safety because the trigger is designed to work as an added safety mechanism. Heavy, with a long travel, it’s designed to help avoiding “accidental discharges”… Especially when shooting under heavy stress. That’s why feather-light triggers are not recommended for “battle” use (CQB or whatever you want to call it)… You mess with your Glock factory set trigger, and you’re asking for trouble, no matter what holster you’re using, that’s my humble opinion… 🙂
As a tactical instructor, shooter, and officer of a large tactical pistol club, I strongly recommend the SERPA to everyone I train and have made thousands of draws with a Glock from these rigs. The bottom line is this. Know your gear and know your weapon platform.
People need to stick to one gun and one holster system and practice, practice, practice. You start out dry (no ammo) and work it several hundred times until you are comfortable with gear.
For a catastrophe to occur you must violate two fo the four Cardinal rules of gun safety. This gentleman did both. Had he practiced with that rig with his 1911 dry, he would have seen the Thumb Drive snicking off his thumb safety.
The 1911 is another issue all together. It’s an expert’s pistol which requires a lot of training and not for the newbie. I do not recommend them, nor will I train anyone on them (my very strong opinion).
Most people need to quit reading those silly gun rags and taking the gun scribe’s words as gospel.
The Glock pistol and the SERPA holsters are a great pair. Learn to use them both properly (dry at first) and they’ll give you years of service.
the holster didn’t do anything to the safety on his 1911, he did. as he mentioned. It was the muscle memory of using the 5.11 holster that caused him to hit the safety on his 1911 while it was still in the Serpa.
For those who are uncomfortable with their students using a Serpa I can understand their reasoning and will not take them to task for it. You don’t know what the student’s level of expertise is, if he’s practiced to perfection his draws and in a class such as Todd’s that stresses speed or advanced techniques, it might be prudent to dissuade your perspective student from showing up with a Serpa. I for one wouldn’t want to see any of my students injured on MY watch.
If you use a system like the Safariland ALS or the 5.11 thumb drive that causes you to do an action that would/could take your 1911 style safety off, then you might want to rethink your holster selections. I’ve seen muscle memory bring back actions that the student or myself left behind years ago, but under the stress of FOF or the clock that muscle memory kicks in and those actions come to the fore. Muscle memory can be a bitch.
Now something I didn’t consider before I wonder if this gentleman was taught to put his finger on the trigger with the safety in the on position, riding the safety with his thumb and once the gun was level moving towards the target sweep the safety off. While I don’t suggest this technique or teach it, in fact strongly discourage it, I have heard of some that do. It is an old and outdated technique. Using this technique he would naturally thru practice get his finger on the trigger during the initial stages of the draw and was suprised that the gun went off since he had inadvertantly swept off the safety when aquiring his grip.
The SERPA is a piece of junk. It is junk in design, junk in materials, junk in execution. I’ve tried not to be snarky about this, but we’re not talking about baseball here. If you want to save some money on a cheap bat, go for it. If you think the SERPA is a good holster, that is proof to me that you either have never seen a high quality holster before, or you lack the ability to discriminate.
CJ: “Claiming it’s merely a ‘training issue’ is like…”
Especially when an accident occurs – as this one appears to have done, and as I suspect most accidents do – during training. How does one train against those accidents, I wonder? It’s not really that helpful saying gun/holster X is “among the best, but you need to practice, practice and practice”, if the problem is someone shooting themselves in the leg while they were trying to do all that practice. Dry-firing is great, but it’ll only get you so far.
Peter: “For a catastrophe to occur you must violate two fo the four Cardinal rules of gun safety.”
Well…obviously. But the important thing is not *whether* a violation occurred, but *why* it occurred. Trying to address gun safety by just telling people to follow the four rules is like road safety by just telling them they’ll be fine if they just follow the One Cardinal Rule of road safety: “don’t hit anything”. It’s true, but not very enlightening.
Many people drive under the influence and without their seatbelt and never have an accident, but that doesn’t mean doing those things are a good idea. If a particular holster seems more prone to accidents than another (and I’m not saying this one does, I haven’t done any research on it) then that’s a valid concern, regardless of how many other people might have used them without any issues. If accidents are relatively rare, then you’d positively expect most people to not shoot themselves when using a particular type of gear, but that’s not going to be much consolation to the ones that do.
I have run a Serpa for quite some time doing 2 intensive test and evaluations on the holster. Once when they first released the Serpa and another T&E about 1 year ago. I never experienced any locking of the mechanism by debris during my testing but I did intentionally set one up and I could clearly see this as a very valid concern and the potential for this happening was quite real. This also validated other claims by individuals (6 persons and counting) that I personally know who have experienced the problem during actual training.
I have personally experienced and witnessed failures in the belt mechanisms during weapons retention drills where the holster very easily separated from the belt loop lock. Highly unacceptable in a duty or defensive situation in regards to weapons retention.
As for the finger placement, I consider myself a pretty accomplished shooter and also teach at what might be considered some of the highest levels of combat shooters and even I experienced the “curling” effect. In reality the people who tend to start “curling” their index finger to hit the release are often people who are doing high stress or even speed drills where there is a high level of stress placed on the shooter. Despite the thousands of drawstrokes out of the serpa I have found myself missing the release under only the certain circumstances mentioned above. I also find myself doing a hard “press” with the tip of my finger on the release. While I have not done so, I can easily see how this hard press on the drawstroke can produce a finger inside the trigger and a possible discharge of the weapon.
Due to all 3 of the above factors, primarily the fouling of the locking mechanism and the poor retention qualities of the holster ripping right off the belt, I cannot see how any professional trainer can suggest the Serpa as a Duty or Defensive type of holster. As a professional instructor, I certainly do not.
Stay Safe,
Surf
I’m going to put this down to “rushing things” due to the holster swap.
I have been using the Serpa level III holster for my H&K for around two years now, in a law enforcement/duty capacity, after a rather unimpressive start with Safariland’s ALS holster. The Safariland’s rotating bale kept popping forward, usually when running/chasing someone, due to the elbow on that side coming into contact with the top of the holster. This is about the worst possible time for it to disengage, as the motion of running can quite easily bounce the gun out of the holster. I’ve never dropped my own pistol, but I have scooped weapons off the ground and returnted them to other officers after their guns bounced out, more than once. Seatbelts in vehicles have also disengaged the safety on that holster, usually without the officer’s knowledge. The prudent do an equipment check every time they get out, yes, but this still added an extra step to remember on every vehicle stop, refueling break, end of the day, etc., and most folks won’t remember to check every time.
Additionally, the ALS is prone to jamming due to -large- detritus. I had my own jam up twice due to sticks getting between the bale and pistol, effectively locking up the holster until the object was removed. Again, this is in a duty/law enforcement capacity, not concealed-carry.
I went to the Serpa III specifically because it is NOT prone to these failures. Yes, small debris can lock up the holster by interfering with the trigger guard release button, and it’s harder to clear the jam, but it’s also much harder to get an object in there than it is with the ALS. And yes, inattentive/rushed drawing of the pistol can lead the trigger finger to “sweep” into the trigger guard, resulting in unwanted holes in innocent legs. I chose this holster knowing these, practice my draw and carry habits with them in mind, and switched my off-duty/concealed holster to another Serpa, to maintain commonality of draw motion and prevent this sort of “oops” with myself.
My guess as to what occurred here was a combination of things, but ultimately a result of “rushing things.” Switching holsters changed up the draw enough that ToddG’s muscle memory became unsuitable for the holster he was using at the time of the negligent discharge. Exactly where the thumb safety on his 1911 disengaged isn’t clear to me; but his finger slipping into the trigger guard was plainly obvious. Switching holsters, trying to draw quickly (whether in practice or in self-defense), and a rush/fumble when the pistol did not release from the holster as expected, all contributed to the negligent discharge. (For what it’s worth, I’ve also heard of, and witnessed one, similar negligent discharges with other holsters, when the shooter was “rushing” to put that first round on-target. Thankfully, no one was injured in the case I saw.)
Remember that the first thing to go in an adrenaline-type situation is fine motor control. If you’re not in the habit of making the -same- motions -every- time, you -will- get fumble-fingered; this sort of failure then becomes more likely, both the initial failure to draw the pistol, and the subsequent “sweep” of the trigger finger onto the trigger.
I offer this, not as condoning or condemning of pistol or holster, but as a commentary that, like the 1911 or several other pistols, the Serpa level III holster is an “exclusive” type of equipment, taking much practice to master. If you use it, use it exclusively. If you have several different “systems,” stay away from it. Used properly, with proper training, it is a very safe, very secure holster. Used as “one of many,” it can easily become a liability. Both those people who recommend “everyone should have one,” and those who say “it’s junk; no one should ever have this crap” do the Serpa a dis-service. It’s a specialized holster, requiring specialized practice, and within that specialization, performs its role admirably. Outside that specification… well, buyer beware.
Kermit.
Reply to Surf:
Your comment posted while I was writing mine. I’m unsure of the exact nature of the “belt lock” failure you reference; could you provide details? Are you speaking of the screws holding the holster to the belt slide coming undone?
Again, with regards to the debris and “finger curling,” I’m in general agreement; choose this holster only if you’re going to use it exclusively, and be very aware of its downsides. It works for me, but it will NOT work for everyone.
Surf: “I never experienced any locking of the mechanism by debris during my testing but I did intentionally set one up and I could clearly see this as a very valid concern and the potential for this happening was quite real.”
I have a SERPA but I used it maybe three or four times and stopped for this very reason, although it technically wasn’t “debris”. I was on my way to my home range out back in winter, and happened to fall over in the snow. Maybe five or ten minutes later when I came to draw my 1911 the locking mechanism was completely frozen up. It took almost a minute to get the weapon out of there, with a round in the chute and the hammer back the whole time. That right there was enough for me to write it off permanently as a fatal design flaw, for anyone living in northerly latitudes, at least.
I’m not a fan of the Serpa, but I don’t malign it, either. I must admit that my viewing of this video was tainted by the fact that I saw this shooter for the first time recently in a video where he declared that the best way to carry concealed was to stuff his 1911 down the front of his pants, pointed at his crotch, without a holster of any sort.
That makes me take anything else he says or does with an (un)healthy dose of salt.
Hmm that isn’t Todd in the video.
Interestingly enough. His finger straightened right out after he dumped the round into his leg. The jury is still out on the SERPA for me. Any system requires THOUSANDS of repetitions dry before even attempting a specific “tactical” skill with live ammunition. Consistency of equipment/training.. or INconsistency in this case was likely the true cause of this ND. I hope his recovery is swift, and I imagine that this is something he’ll hold in his mind the next time he’s training.
RSA-OTC,
“I also ECHO those who posted regarding consistency of your equipment.”
This.
I am dumb. My hands are even dumber than the rest of me. This is why I carry the same gun in the same holster in the same place. I just simply don’t trust myself to not screw up and let one fly if I go introducing variables under stress…
(Incidentally, other than the aviation and motorcycling communities, the firearms training community is the only one I’ve experienced that has such a rigid code of blame acceptance and incident deconstruction to inculcate community learning and avoidance of a repetition of the same accident…)
I have got to add my own humble disagreement on the anti-SERPA commentary, based on my own humble in-field experience with these holsters. I have been running SERPA Duty Level 2 & Level 3 Holsters with my Glock duty pistol for over 4 years in the marine LE environment, and have never had any debris problems, corrosion or other function/quality issues with them.
Kudos to Mr Grebner for sharing this video and helping to raise safety awareness, I salute you sir. Many AD’s are the result of a safety issue(s) that the shooter is unaware of, which just needs the right circumstances to result in a tragedy. Thanks to Mr Grebner, I am even more aware of the need to closely monitor students for this error.
In my opinion, the primary cause of the accident was the holster/weapon swap; this most probably resulted in the early disengagement of the 1911 thumb safety, and coupled with the additional error of the finger entering the trigger guard before the rock / lock / push / sight index.
The trigger finger should be kept absolutely straight during the drawstroke, which with the SERPA design places the trigger finger in a safe index position on the frame above the trigger guard, no need to curl the trigger finger to release the auto-lock. In any event, regardless of the type of holster used, it would seem like a good idea to stick with one type of holster and master it – particularly if we are going to practice and develop close-quarter / high speed manipulation skills.
Sorry guys, I just don’t support comments like “the Serpa is junk”. Stay safe, and let’s hope others take the right message from this.
Best regards from Jamaica, yours aye!
Al Stewart
Learning from your own mistakes is experience. Learning from someone else’s is wisdom.
Thanks for the heads up! Mr. Grebner’s willingness of to show this as a warning to others deserves our appreciation.
Ok, so a few points that people seem to have missed from watching this video,
Its not Todd (or me, to all my Facebook friends who thought it was when I linked to it the other night, yes that’s right my name suddenly changed to Tex, I got a funny accent and lost the fangs)
He hit the safety due to his using a different holster earlier in the day, he says this, its not something we are guessing at
He pressed the trigger after he drew the gun, pretty obvious to most of us, but a few people (not necessarily here on PT) think the holster fired the gun, it didn’t, he did.
Serpas DO suck, there have been more ADs with this holster use than any other, on top of that they will with only a small amount of debris, seize up making it so your gun can’t go Bang, or they’ll just break off at the belt.
So you pick, a holster that locks your gun in rendering it useless, or comes off your belt, or encourages you to put your finger too close to the trigger under stress resulting in you shooting yourself?
I can’t think of any other consumer product that more people would defend when it failed repeatedly. .maybe consumer reports should do a test?
In response to Rob E – let me rewrite this, and see if it sounds like a different “pointless internet argument,” or merely the same tired old saw with the names changed around.
“Glocks DO suck. There have been more Accidental / Negligent Discharges with Glocks than with any other; on top of that, they have no safeties and will go bang when you don’t want them too, or they’ll just blow up when you do.
So you pick a pistol that is unforgiving of mistakes, encourages you to put your hand in front of the muzzle when cleaning it, or blows up because of the polygonal rifling?
I can’t think of any other consumer product that more people would defend when it failed repeatedly. Maybe Consumer Reports should do a test?”
There, see? We’ve taken another product, specialized in its application, much-maligned by those who hate it, and frankly much mis-used and misunderstood by those who defend it. It’s another tool, unforgiving of mistakes, with the rare defect; it’s a tool that is very good within its own specific niche and absolutely horrible outside said niche.
Not once have I, or most of the others on this thread, declared the Serpa as the “best-evar holstar,” and defended it against all comers. It’s imperfect. We all admit it. It works for a specific set of situations. It can be dangerous in the hands of someone who does not understand its limitations or is unwilling to practice with it, and anyone who “defends” the Serpa will stress this. If you’re not going to practice with it, and proper practice at that, don’t use it.
I’ve never had debris catch in mine. I try not to roll around in dirt, and if I am rolling around, it means I’m laying on the gun, and my hands are more focused with keeping the other guy’s hands off my throat, wrenching the knife/weapon/etc away from him, or wrestling him off me and hopefully into submission. It means I’m hands-on with the dude who’s attacking me, and I do NOT want that gun coming into play, as a gun in-hand is more easily fought over and swapped back-and-forth than a gun in-holster. Frankly, this is something of a made-up problem in my eyes; in the environment I live/work, it’s a non-issue. We don’t get snow/freezes, and sand falls right out.
I’ve never shot myself while drawing the gun. I’m aware of the limitation, and I practice specifically to -avoid- such trigger-sweep. This is an issue, specifically related to practice, and sticking to one method of carry and type of holster.
I’ve never had the gun rip off my hip. I’ve never seen it happen, or heard of it happening. I -have- heard of guys who failed to check/maintain their equipment allowing the screws holding the holster to the belt mount to back out, thus allowing the holster to fall off. This is a user failure, not an equipment failure; I wear a Serpa unconcealed daily, bang it into things, whack it, drop it, clobber it, etc. I have had to tighten the screws on it a few times – about two to three times a year. Check it daily, tighten occasionally. This is a maintenence issue, and thus a user issue.
I fail to see where the Serpa “sucks.” I’ve had a sucky holster, which was the Safariland ALS, which I’ve heard many Serpa-haters slobber over, yet is the absolute worst holster I’ve ever used. The Serpa is like a Glock, unforgiving. Respect what it can and cannot do, then go practice with it, carefully and often. If you won’t do that, choose something else – but stop maligning the product and those of us who DO choose to use it. You might as well blame the gun for going off when some kid gets hold of it and accidentally shoots his sibling with it.
I’m done here, and apologies to the site owner for my rant; I just get ticked off when gun-owners play the liberal card of blaming the equipment instead of the user.
Don’t blame the holster. Blame the training. You see him draw with a flat finger and then hook it into the trigger guard. He was going to the trigger too quickly, and that is not a problem with the Serpa.
I’ve run a Serpa for years, and have never found my finger on the trigger before I meant for it to be there.
I know the argument – “but you have to push that button!” So? Where is that button located? Over the frame! Most of the people who argue that the button on a Serpa causes NDs are pinheads who’ve never used one or never actually paid attention to how they use. Or they’re incompetent trainers who’ve had a student shoot themselves (I’m looking at you, Tactical Response and Front Site.)
Perhaps if more trainers would put more stock in basics, in the “crawl, walk, run” steps, we’d have fewer people ventilating themselves coming out of the holster.
Blaming the gear is always where the incompetent go. This goes for trainers, too.
Serpa holsters got popular with those that want a retention holster that auto-locks upon reholstering. Same reason the 5:11/Blade-Tech Thumb drive is increasing in popularity. Personally I never saw any problems with the Safariland 070/071 series myself for a retention holster and I never thought it much to re-snap… I’ve tried a few “retention” holsters over the years but have always gone back to Ted Blocker leather thumb snap holsters for duty and concealed holsters of the open top variety. I’ve always looked at retention as my skill and ability vs. theirs anyway; instead of depending on a mechanism. Good for Tex and he deserves some credit for putting this out there-but the blame does sit with him. I don’t see the Serpa disappearing but I do see the Thumb-Drive gaining some steam. Personally I’d go with this http://www.safariland.com/DutyGear/product.aspx?pid=0701 if I wanted a concealment holsters that offered some sort of special retention.
Well,
I do have two BH holster: passive and active (Serpa) retention. I must state that I am (as another reader mentioned) recreational shooter. The main reason I bought Serpa was I wanted a holster I could be sure I will never loose my pistol under any circumstances. And few years later that confidence is still with me. I always carry a gun concealed. I must. Newer had any issues with holster in any temperatures — -25/+35 (that’s in Celsius), that includes rain and snow too (though under upper cholthes). My main gun carry reason is outdoor trips and camping. Conditions are’t sterill. I will never shoot myself, because my country gun law do not allow me to carry loaded chamber pistol. My only issues are finding the pistol release button on the holster quicly enough thus never use it for competition shooting.
Another issue is… As I am quite active airsoft player I tend to look at many real solders photoes. And almost all SF members have their pistols in the BH Serpas (not issued by the forses, I gues)… And there should be a good reason.
I’ve always kinda felt the same way on the SERPA thing. I liked that they simple to reholster but never liked the deactivation. That’s why I’m pleased with the Safariland ASP series (Link: http://www.safariland.com/DutyGear/product.aspx?pid=6377) With the thumb deactivation, it’s much less of an safety issue.
Well it seems that the Serpa Discussions are as spirited as the “is the 1911 still a viable platform” or “9mm,40S&W, 45acp” discussions.
Just a few observations:
For those who say I’ve never or haven’t had XXXX problem, add the word yet. Painful and embarrassing experience (no I haven’t shot myself :-))has shown me that talking in absolutes can came back and bite you. Example, recently I stated on the sister forum of this blog I “NEVER” had a revolver go down in 30 years with something that would not have locked an auto up as well. That night at our IDPA match my revolver did just that. Karma is a bitch.
Any platform/holster that relies on a mechanism to release can fail through broken/worn parts or debris. Be it an ALS, Thumb Drive, or Serpa. You need to keep them clear of dirt and watch out for wear and tear. The more complicated the mechanism the more likely it is to fail. Even the one way snaps on a thumb break holster come become lose and rotate so they will not release without concentrated effort.
Personally I have not taken a close look at BH duty level 2 or 3 belt holsters and can offer no opinion on them. But after this discussion I closely examined the more popular Sporter version both paddle and belt variations,this is the one in the video. My thoughts:
The release button is located over the frame and not the trigger guard. Even if you curl your finger, the finger tip should fall on the frame not in the trigger.
The release mechanism is only strong enough to hold the gun in against falling out or casual tugging. Seriously this is not a “RETENTION” holster and the mechanism will fail during a serious grab attempt without your intervention.
It would take a great deal of debris to lock up the versions I observed, there’s plenty of clearance, but rolling around on packable soil or snow could do it.
The screws that hold the paddle or belt loops to the holster body do so through slots not holes. I believe this was to make the cant easily adjustable with out removing the screws entirely. Unfortunately the trade off is that the screws are only supported top and bottom not all the way around the screw circumference. This creates a weakness and I can see the screws pulling free of the paddle or belt loops during a serious tussle.
For me the paddle version holds the holster to far off the body to be considered for concealed carry.
Lastly – this holster was made to meet a price point and the construction shows. Understand it’s weakness and limitations and work with in those. It’s not a holster for me but for others on a limited budget with the proper mind set it may do.
I’m rather surprised to see the argument evolving into the Serpa being called a high-speed piece of equipment that requires a bunch of practice to use properly. That’s certainly not how it is marketed by the manufacturer.
“Blame the training” –
With all due respect, that’s a non-answer. It’s as useful as telling a doctor it hurts when you do X and having him reply “Don’t do that!” A holster that requires someone to apply inward pressure with their trigger finger is a fundamentally flawed design. If prior to the introduction of the Serpa I had run around telling people they need to be pressing inward with their trigger finger while drawing a handgun I would have rightly been labeled a madman…and yet some dude who knows zip about using handguns designs a holster that requires exactly that and it’s good gear?
Leaving samples of 1 and reluctance to objectively analyze our own purchases aside, from a pure logic standpoint:
What logical argument is there for encouraging someone to apply inward pressure with their trigger finger while trying to draw a handgun?
Answer: There is none. Standing on it’s own there’s absolutely no good reason to have someone performing this act because of the potential for getting the finger inside the trigger guard prematurely. Nobody with any reasonable reputation teaches this action as a part of the draw.
Take the silly holster out of the equation and objectively examine the actions required of the shooter and it’s plainly demonstrable as a bad idea. Think really hard about this, folks: If you were instructing a new shooter, would you EVER instruct them to press inward with their trigger finger while they are attempting to draw a handgun from a holster?
A piece of equipment designed around a practice that is objectively foolhardy should be a non-starter.